2 ms·

> s*t on Firefox devs The nerd rage is targeted at Mozilla's dishonest and incompetent managers, no? The actual dev work is top notch.

emestifs 3y ago
No, people go after the devs too. I was specific about distinguishing Firefox and Mozilla in my post. Firefox in too often caught in the political/flame crossfire.
- account42 3y ago
  Devs that implement user-hostile changes like reduced UI configurability, sure.
coldpie 3y ago
> dishonest and incompetent managers Even if it is, that kind of language doesn't help. These are all people you're talking about, trying their best to do a job they care about. Nothing gets better by your being a jerk.
- Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
  > trying their best to do a job they care about I would not take that as a given for Mozilla's upper management. Many of their decisions seem to ignore what users want in deference to Google or other motivations.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Comments like yours are exactly the problem. Do you have any real knowledge anyway? Have you worked there? It's just spreading toxic sludge.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    You're just making shit up. I was with the Mozilla project for 25 years, with Netscape and then the Mozilla companies for 23 years. I was involved in reviews of the very first Google and Mozilla contract in the fall of 2004. Google has no say in the Mozilla product experience. None. There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. That you want to imagine nefarious backroom deals that never existed and use those imaginings to shit on Mozilla is deeply insulting, and you should know that you and people like you have done more to dispirit and demoralize Mozilla than any competition ever did.
    - account42 3y ago
      If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Wether there is a formalized contract or not Mozilla makes choicses in the interest of Google over (especially power) users all the time. And in general its absurd to think that taking money (not to mention almost your entire funding) from someone isn't going to make you biased towards that person. As has been pointed out many times in discussions about this, you don't need any explicit deals for conflicts of interest to emerge. Having the wealth of Mozilla's leadership depend on Google's good graces is going to encourage them to make decisions that will keep Google happy. Attacking users users that bring up grievances is not going to help your case here. > There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. What exactly are those things? Is that why Firefox does not come with ad blocking by default?
      - pseudalopex 3y ago
        > Wether there is a formalized contract or not Mozilla makes choicses in the interest of Google over (especially power) users all the time. What choices did they make in Google's interest?
- MaxBarraclough 3y ago
  There's a difference between criticism and harassment. Dishonest and incompetent aren't just mean words chosen at random, I used them for a reason. Power users aren't happy that Firefox has been doing nothing but trailing Chrome for years, actively making the browser worse for power users by weakening extensions, baking ads into the browser, wilfully refusing to permit opt-out of telemetry, and lying about revenue-sharing with Pocket. [0][1][2][3][4][5][6] Mozilla gave its CEO a raise of over $1m/year, from a starting point that was already over $1m/year, at a time when Firefox was losing usage share, while laying off engineers. Mozilla did all this while congratulating itself for putting people before profits! [7][8][9][10] I still use Firefox as my primary desktop browser, and I really want to like Mozilla, but here we are. (As an aside, I see Pocket is finally going to be made Free and Open Source Software, which is good news. [11]) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36841567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36841567 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144137 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391659 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14754740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14754740 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616740 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10680925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10680925 [6] https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/17/mozilla-looks-to-its-next-chapter/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/17/mozilla-looks-to-its-next-... [7] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569464 [8] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30723971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30723971 [9] https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker#Negative_salary-achievements_correlation_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker#Negative_salary... [11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_(service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_(service)
throwawaymoz28 3y ago
I worked at Mozilla as an engineer for 6 years and this was not how it came across to me; there was, in fact, quite a lot of hostility towards engineers specifically. I would also note that "managers" runs quite a wide gamut and my experience with engineering managers at Mozilla was generally positive; upper management was not so great.

emestifs 3y ago

No, people go after the devs too. I was specific about distinguishing Firefox and Mozilla in my post. Firefox in too often caught in the political/flame crossfire.

account42 3y ago
Devs that implement user-hostile changes like reduced UI configurability, sure.

coldpie 3y ago

> dishonest and incompetent managers Even if it is, that kind of language doesn't help. These are all people you're talking about, trying their best to do a job they care about. Nothing gets better by your being a jerk.

Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
> trying their best to do a job they care about I would not take that as a given for Mozilla's upper management. Many of their decisions seem to ignore what users want in deference to Google or other motivations.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Comments like yours are exactly the problem. Do you have any real knowledge anyway? Have you worked there? It's just spreading toxic sludge.
- asadotzler 3y ago
  You're just making shit up. I was with the Mozilla project for 25 years, with Netscape and then the Mozilla companies for 23 years. I was involved in reviews of the very first Google and Mozilla contract in the fall of 2004. Google has no say in the Mozilla product experience. None. There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. That you want to imagine nefarious backroom deals that never existed and use those imaginings to shit on Mozilla is deeply insulting, and you should know that you and people like you have done more to dispirit and demoralize Mozilla than any competition ever did.
  - account42 3y ago
    If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Wether there is a formalized contract or not Mozilla makes choicses in the interest of Google over (especially power) users all the time. And in general its absurd to think that taking money (not to mention almost your entire funding) from someone isn't going to make you biased towards that person. As has been pointed out many times in discussions about this, you don't need any explicit deals for conflicts of interest to emerge. Having the wealth of Mozilla's leadership depend on Google's good graces is going to encourage them to make decisions that will keep Google happy. Attacking users users that bring up grievances is not going to help your case here. > There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. What exactly are those things? Is that why Firefox does not come with ad blocking by default?
    - pseudalopex 3y ago
      > Wether there is a formalized contract or not Mozilla makes choicses in the interest of Google over (especially power) users all the time. What choices did they make in Google's interest?
MaxBarraclough 3y ago
There's a difference between criticism and harassment. Dishonest and incompetent aren't just mean words chosen at random, I used them for a reason. Power users aren't happy that Firefox has been doing nothing but trailing Chrome for years, actively making the browser worse for power users by weakening extensions, baking ads into the browser, wilfully refusing to permit opt-out of telemetry, and lying about revenue-sharing with Pocket. [0][1][2][3][4][5][6] Mozilla gave its CEO a raise of over $1m/year, from a starting point that was already over $1m/year, at a time when Firefox was losing usage share, while laying off engineers. Mozilla did all this while congratulating itself for putting people before profits! [7][8][9][10] I still use Firefox as my primary desktop browser, and I really want to like Mozilla, but here we are. (As an aside, I see Pocket is finally going to be made Free and Open Source Software, which is good news. [11]) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36841567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36841567 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144137 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391659 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14754740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14754740 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616740 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10680925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10680925 [6] https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/17/mozilla-looks-to-its-next-chapter/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/17/mozilla-looks-to-its-next-... [7] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569464 [8] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30723971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30723971 [9] https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker#Negative_salary-achievements_correlation_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker#Negative_salary... [11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_(service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_(service)

throwawaymoz28 3y ago

I worked at Mozilla as an engineer for 6 years and this was not how it came across to me; there was, in fact, quite a lot of hostility towards engineers specifically. I would also note that "managers" runs quite a wide gamut and my experience with engineering managers at Mozilla was generally positive; upper management was not so great.