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The Firefox paradox: People b***h about Firefox's (lack of) market share, Mozilla doing stupid things (fair criticism), Firefox not having X (extension support

The Firefox paradox: People b***h about Firefox's (lack of) market share, Mozilla doing stupid things (fair criticism), Firefox not having X (extension support on Mobile, moving from legacy extensions to standard manifest format) Then people will still bring up this baggage even when something good happens, will refuse to move away from the browser monoculture/monopoly, s**t on Firefox devs FFS, something good happened. No other browser has this. Yet people will find a way to lessen it. For what? What benefit?

dmix 3y ago
"Why even try"
dblohm7 3y ago
Former Firefox dev for both desktop and Android here: I can definitely confirm that being constantly shit on wore me down a lot.
- dandanua 3y ago
  Haters gonna hate
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Sorry. You did good things for everyone and deserve much better, but I hope you give yourself the recognition. Thanks for everything. HN should have an annual Appreciation Day, with no enshittification of threads.
- emestifs 3y ago
  Thank you and everyone else working on the Firefox browser and adjacent projects for your hard work. Don't let the noise of the internet lessen what you and the team have done and continue to do.
- MiddleEndian 3y ago
  Gotta say, I fucking love Firefox. Be proud of your work.
  - dblohm7 3y ago
    I am, and thank you!
- coldpie 3y ago
  I'm sorry that happened. I wish there was some way to solve the "one jerk outweighs a thousand happy users" problem. I still vividly remember one guy being an asshole about my work on the Wine bug tracker a decade ago, regardless of how many happy users I know there were.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > I wish there was some way to solve the "one jerk outweighs a thousand happy users" problem. We could downvote all that stuff to oblivion. Instead, comments like it are voted to the top comment on almost every page.
    - pcwalton 3y ago
      It's human nature, unfortunately. Reality television producers have known this for ages: the episodes that feature people who come off as irredeemable jerks always garner the highest ratings.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > It's human nature, unfortunately. If that ever really meant something, it has been so overused in the last few years that it's impossible to pick out any needles of serious use from the general default trendy grain silos of despair. I'm not trying to get all of humanity to give up sex. I believe we can do better, here on HN, in this one regard. I am that insanely optimistic!
    - account42 3y ago
      Or instead Mozilla could actually listen to user feedback. People don't "shit" on Firefox for no reason.
      - dblohm7 3y ago
        Yeah, but shitting on devs for stuff they have nothing to do with is just a lousy thing to do.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  I am very thankful for Firefox. It keeps the web sane for me, and I very much appreciate everyone who contributed to it. Thank you for your work!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MaxBarraclough 3y ago
> s*t on Firefox devs The nerd rage is targeted at Mozilla's dishonest and incompetent managers, no? The actual dev work is top notch.
- emestifs 3y ago
  No, people go after the devs too. I was specific about distinguishing Firefox and Mozilla in my post. Firefox in too often caught in the political/flame crossfire.
  - account42 3y ago
    Devs that implement user-hostile changes like reduced UI configurability, sure.
- coldpie 3y ago
  > dishonest and incompetent managers Even if it is, that kind of language doesn't help. These are all people you're talking about, trying their best to do a job they care about. Nothing gets better by your being a jerk.
  - Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
    > trying their best to do a job they care about I would not take that as a given for Mozilla's upper management. Many of their decisions seem to ignore what users want in deference to Google or other motivations.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Comments like yours are exactly the problem. Do you have any real knowledge anyway? Have you worked there? It's just spreading toxic sludge.
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      You're just making shit up. I was with the Mozilla project for 25 years, with Netscape and then the Mozilla companies for 23 years. I was involved in reviews of the very first Google and Mozilla contract in the fall of 2004. Google has no say in the Mozilla product experience. None. There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. That you want to imagine nefarious backroom deals that never existed and use those imaginings to shit on Mozilla is deeply insulting, and you should know that you and people like you have done more to dispirit and demoralize Mozilla than any competition ever did.
toyg 3y ago
> For what? What benefit? Trolling used to be an amateur sport, but these days it's largely a professional endeavour. Astroturfing is an everyday occurrence on any decently-sized social media site, including this very one.
secretforest 3y ago
FF gets crapped on all the time, BUT... it's still the best mainstream browser out there IMHO. I've been using FF since day one, when it was code named Phoenix. As the spiritual successor to Netscape Navigator, I have super fond memories of using NN, as it was the only decent browser we could install on the Sun Sparc workstations we had in college before I could afford my own computer. I still toy around with SeaMonkey once or twice a year for the memories. Sadly, the browser world has almost become something of a mono culture with the majority of offerings using Chromium as their base. I liked Opera for years. Original engine. Tabbed. Now Vivaldi is the Opera successor, but sadly uses Chromium as the base. Vivaldi have said they are not going to allow the changes to affect them. Again, sadly, I doubt that in the near term, anyone will try and offer up a new browser. Even Edge is nothing more than Chromium with MS's tech-nasty Kabuki makeup and overly-complicated proprietary plumbing. Is it too much to ask for a browser that just browses the web without all the garbage tie-ins? Tabs, ad blocking that I control, not add-ins. Like a Pi-hole, where I can add lists. I realize some browsers do this, but the tie-ins, notes, skins, email, political activism, it's all too much.

dmix 3y ago

"Why even try"

dblohm7 3y ago

Former Firefox dev for both desktop and Android here: I can definitely confirm that being constantly shit on wore me down a lot.

dandanua 3y ago
Haters gonna hate
wolverine876 3y ago
Sorry. You did good things for everyone and deserve much better, but I hope you give yourself the recognition. Thanks for everything. HN should have an annual Appreciation Day, with no enshittification of threads.
emestifs 3y ago
Thank you and everyone else working on the Firefox browser and adjacent projects for your hard work. Don't let the noise of the internet lessen what you and the team have done and continue to do.
MiddleEndian 3y ago
Gotta say, I fucking love Firefox. Be proud of your work.
- dblohm7 3y ago
  I am, and thank you!
coldpie 3y ago
I'm sorry that happened. I wish there was some way to solve the "one jerk outweighs a thousand happy users" problem. I still vividly remember one guy being an asshole about my work on the Wine bug tracker a decade ago, regardless of how many happy users I know there were.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > I wish there was some way to solve the "one jerk outweighs a thousand happy users" problem. We could downvote all that stuff to oblivion. Instead, comments like it are voted to the top comment on almost every page.
  - pcwalton 3y ago
    It's human nature, unfortunately. Reality television producers have known this for ages: the episodes that feature people who come off as irredeemable jerks always garner the highest ratings.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > It's human nature, unfortunately. If that ever really meant something, it has been so overused in the last few years that it's impossible to pick out any needles of serious use from the general default trendy grain silos of despair. I'm not trying to get all of humanity to give up sex. I believe we can do better, here on HN, in this one regard. I am that insanely optimistic!
  - account42 3y ago
    Or instead Mozilla could actually listen to user feedback. People don't "shit" on Firefox for no reason.
    - dblohm7 3y ago
      Yeah, but shitting on devs for stuff they have nothing to do with is just a lousy thing to do.
bloopernova 3y ago
I am very thankful for Firefox. It keeps the web sane for me, and I very much appreciate everyone who contributed to it. Thank you for your work!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MaxBarraclough 3y ago

> s*t on Firefox devs The nerd rage is targeted at Mozilla's dishonest and incompetent managers, no? The actual dev work is top notch.

emestifs 3y ago
No, people go after the devs too. I was specific about distinguishing Firefox and Mozilla in my post. Firefox in too often caught in the political/flame crossfire.
- account42 3y ago
  Devs that implement user-hostile changes like reduced UI configurability, sure.
coldpie 3y ago
> dishonest and incompetent managers Even if it is, that kind of language doesn't help. These are all people you're talking about, trying their best to do a job they care about. Nothing gets better by your being a jerk.
- Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
  > trying their best to do a job they care about I would not take that as a given for Mozilla's upper management. Many of their decisions seem to ignore what users want in deference to Google or other motivations.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Comments like yours are exactly the problem. Do you have any real knowledge anyway? Have you worked there? It's just spreading toxic sludge.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    You're just making shit up. I was with the Mozilla project for 25 years, with Netscape and then the Mozilla companies for 23 years. I was involved in reviews of the very first Google and Mozilla contract in the fall of 2004. Google has no say in the Mozilla product experience. None. There are some things Mozilla is disallowed from doing to Google Search results that Firefox displays, but that's basically it. That you want to imagine nefarious backroom deals that never existed and use those imaginings to shit on Mozilla is deeply insulting, and you should know that you and people like you have done more to dispirit and demoralize Mozilla than any competition ever did.

toyg 3y ago

> For what? What benefit? Trolling used to be an amateur sport, but these days it's largely a professional endeavour. Astroturfing is an everyday occurrence on any decently-sized social media site, including this very one.

secretforest 3y ago

FF gets crapped on all the time, BUT... it's still the best mainstream browser out there IMHO. I've been using FF since day one, when it was code named Phoenix. As the spiritual successor to Netscape Navigator, I have super fond memories of using NN, as it was the only decent browser we could install on the Sun Sparc workstations we had in college before I could afford my own computer. I still toy around with SeaMonkey once or twice a year for the memories. Sadly, the browser world has almost become something of a mono culture with the majority of offerings using Chromium as their base. I liked Opera for years. Original engine. Tabbed. Now Vivaldi is the Opera successor, but sadly uses Chromium as the base. Vivaldi have said they are not going to allow the changes to affect them. Again, sadly, I doubt that in the near term, anyone will try and offer up a new browser. Even Edge is nothing more than Chromium with MS's tech-nasty Kabuki makeup and overly-complicated proprietary plumbing. Is it too much to ask for a browser that just browses the web without all the garbage tie-ins? Tabs, ad blocking that I control, not add-ins. Like a Pi-hole, where I can add lists. I realize some browsers do this, but the tie-ins, notes, skins, email, political activism, it's all too much.