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I hope people will engage with this. I see so many founders and employees in tech who feel unable to speak up about what they see happening in Gaza.

Zetobal 3y ago
[flagged]
- pbiggar 3y ago
  You don't need propaganda. Just look at the death counts: 18,600 in two months.
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    Look at death counts of other wars in other parts of the world you are just ignoring.
    - pbiggar 3y ago
      This is classic redirection tactics, exactly as Lee Fang exposed last week [1]. You talk about those wars, I'll support you. I'll talk about this one [1] https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        No it's not tell me why you can't sleep when 18600 people get killed but you can sleep like a baby when you know there is a lot more suffering in places without the limelight. You writing about Palestine but not other conflicts says more about you than you want to admit. Hybris.
        jfoweif 3y ago
        Because he (and many others) are more invested in this war? That's why I care more, I didn't care about Russia/Ukraine but have far more knowledge and understanding of this one, and personal relationships.
        pbiggar 3y ago
        For me, Ukraine and Palestine are the same team: the oppressed fighting a powerful oppressor. Plus, I'm Irish - we're always on the side of the colonized. Though in this one, I live in the country oppressing (that being the US), and I'm part of the movement doing the oppressing (that being tech). So there's duty to speak up.
        borski 3y ago
        I think it’s interesting to equate Ukraine and Palestine, given that there are massive differences between the two. For one thing, Ukraine hadn’t spent the last few decades shooting dozens or hundreds of rocket into Russia every day. Putin’s war was precipitated by exactly nothing. Israel’s war was precipitated by the worst terror attack Israel has ever seen, along with hostages taken back to what is clearly an enemy state (from their perspective). Sure, both are wars. But that’s roughly where the similarities end.
        Zetobal 3y ago
        That's hybris.
        basilgohar 3y ago
        It's really bizarre that to speak out against any atrocity you must first speak out about all other atrocities of equal or greater measure. The funny thing is, the illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is approaching a century, millions have been permanently displaced over generations, and Israel continues to illegally steal land that is internationally recognized as illegally occupied. The only "peace" deals that Israel has ever offered were ones that cemented and legalized their theft of the majority of Palestine's original land. So, yeah, when you put it that way, the Palestinian cause against the Zionists in Israel is really close to being, if not the most, one of the most outrageous perpetual atrocities of our time.
  - nashadelic 3y ago
    That’s one Oct 7 every 4 days for 67 days straight
  - brettgo1 3y ago
    Paul, tell me how to get Hamas (the terror group) out of Palestine. They killed 1,200 Israelis and foreigners, wounded 3400, took 100+ hostages including 30 children. What would you do? How can the ongoing conflict in the Gaza Strip, involving groups like Hamas and the state of Israel, be approached to reduce violence and improve safety for all parties involved? What strategies could be considered to address the challenges of urban and underground warfare, the protection of civilians, and the preservation of soldiers' lives, while seeking a path towards peace and stability in the region?
    - pbiggar 3y ago
      I'm not an expert on terrorism, obviously. I just believe that it's immoral to drop bombs on civilians. Like any other conflict, for a positive end result there has to be a meeting of the minds on both sides, committed to peace. So this is going to seem very one sided, but if you look prior to Oct 7, you can't have peace where one side controls everything, has all the resources, and uses them to keep the other population "occupied". That is always going to breed resistance. Very simply, for peace Israel should pull all the settlements out of the West Bank, pull back 50 miles from Gaza for a number of years, remove all checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza, invest in the development of both areas, rebuild the airport they destroyed, stop and sign definitive peace accords allowing free movement and Right of Return for Palestinians, pay reparations for the destruction of Gaza and the damage to the West Bank (plus many other things that I won't list here), and finally on top of that invest in Palestine's future. The only good neighbour is a prosperous one.
      - borski 3y ago
        > So this is going to seem very one sided, but if you look prior to Oct 7, you can't have peace where one side controls everything, has all the resources, and uses them to keep the other population "occupied". That is always going to breed resistance. Except that that's not quite true. Gaza could have continued maintenance of the existing water treatment plant (for example) that was working when Israel pulled out in 2005. Instead, they elected Hamas a year or two later and began firing rockets at Israel. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. > Very simply, for peace Israel should pull all the settlements out of the West Bank, pull back 50 miles from Gaza for a number of years, remove all checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza, invest in the development of both areas, rebuild the airport they destroyed, stop and sign definitive peace accords allowing free movement and Right of Return for Palestinians, pay reparations for the destruction of Gaza and the damage to the West Bank (plus many other things that I won't list here), and finally on top of that invest in Palestine's future. They pulled out completely, including removing every single settler, in 2005. Rebuilding is important, I agree, but if Gaza is going to run its own government, they need to, I don't know, not elect Hamas as perhaps a first-order approximation to "reasonable discourse." Israel isn't going anywhere, no matter what hopes and dreams anyone has. That means they need someone to negotiate with, and Hamas ain't it. In addition, the current government of Israel is garbage and I'm not sure has much interest in a two-state solution at all - but that is a separate (and important!) issue; there have been plenty of years and decades where Israel was committed to a two-state solution, and Gaza... wasn't. Even if Israel did rebuild the airport, allow freedom of movement and right of return, and all that - what guarantees do you have that Hamas would not then just flood into Israel and partake in the destruction of every Jew? None. And that, my friend, is the problem. It is complicated. It is not simple. You are not the first person to have suddenly found the 'secret' to this problem. To think you are, or to think that it is immensely simple, is honestly a bit arrogant, but more importantly, it's also incorrect. The current situation is awful and absolutely terrible; but sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that only Israel is the aggressor, and that suddenly if they pulled out the problem wouldn't exist anymore, is naive at best, and misguided on avaerage.
  - borski 3y ago
    Which side killed more has rarely been a good proxy for which side was right.
- pbiggar 3y ago
  To add to this: the two sides in the war are supposedly Israel and Hamas. Can we not agree that either side killing civilians is wrong?
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    Killing in general is wrong.
    - pbiggar 3y ago
      Great, seems we agree. So it should stop and we should speak up about it, right?
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        I have no problem with people speaking up just with people that want to be edgy and write a sob story when a opportunity arises. As I said you deciding to speak up now but not about other conflicts says more about you than you think. Do you really not sleep?
        pbiggar 3y ago
        I don't usually post this sort of "dear diary" thing either, but when there's a US ally doing a genocide, and we in the west have the opportunity to do something about it, I figured it was better to post. Not sure what I can do about the Congo, but if I get some small set of folks in tech to feel like they can criticize this genocide, we have the ability to change US policy. But yeah, I'm not being facetious. I haven't slept properly since Oct 7.
        Zetobal 3y ago
        Your previous blog posts are still available for everyone to read. To say you don't normally write emotionally loaded is obviously wrong.
        3y ago
- jfoweif 3y ago
  I would say your post is the false propaganda, pretending everything is one sided and extremely complex, and that people should not be emotional when emotion is the root of ethics. Whatever your thoughts on how this war started, what's currently happening is clearly a massacre of the civilians of Gaza.
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    No as you admitted in your other comment you are just biased.
    - jfoweif 3y ago
      Again, how can you be perfectly "objective" writing about something when morality is subjective and based on emotion at its core. We can write about the facts and attempt to convince the audience based on appealing to their moral values, which is what OP is doing.
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        The problem is that people like you who are overthrown by their own emotions talk about objectivity. The only thing you champion with a view like yours is moral relativism.
        pbiggar 3y ago
        Of course we're biased. 20,000 people have been killed by indescrimimate bombing. I would hope that makes you biased too
        Zetobal 3y ago
        As long as the only solution is a one sided ceasefire there is no solution. That's what you people have to understand. You can be biased as much as you want to just pondering on one solution doesn't help anyone. The people in the region should understand that from experience.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - anupsurendran 3y ago
      every side has a story to tell. a story without emotion is not worth telling.
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        "story" it's not a fucking story that's the whole point of the discussion.

Zetobal 3y ago

[flagged]

pbiggar 3y ago
You don't need propaganda. Just look at the death counts: 18,600 in two months.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  Look at death counts of other wars in other parts of the world you are just ignoring.
  - pbiggar 3y ago
    This is classic redirection tactics, exactly as Lee Fang exposed last week [1]. You talk about those wars, I'll support you. I'll talk about this one [1] https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      No it's not tell me why you can't sleep when 18600 people get killed but you can sleep like a baby when you know there is a lot more suffering in places without the limelight. You writing about Palestine but not other conflicts says more about you than you want to admit. Hybris.
      - jfoweif 3y ago
        Because he (and many others) are more invested in this war? That's why I care more, I didn't care about Russia/Ukraine but have far more knowledge and understanding of this one, and personal relationships.
        pbiggar 3y ago
        For me, Ukraine and Palestine are the same team: the oppressed fighting a powerful oppressor. Plus, I'm Irish - we're always on the side of the colonized. Though in this one, I live in the country oppressing (that being the US), and I'm part of the movement doing the oppressing (that being tech). So there's duty to speak up.
        borski 3y ago
        I think it’s interesting to equate Ukraine and Palestine, given that there are massive differences between the two. For one thing, Ukraine hadn’t spent the last few decades shooting dozens or hundreds of rocket into Russia every day. Putin’s war was precipitated by exactly nothing. Israel’s war was precipitated by the worst terror attack Israel has ever seen, along with hostages taken back to what is clearly an enemy state (from their perspective). Sure, both are wars. But that’s roughly where the similarities end.
        Zetobal 3y ago
        That's hybris.
      - basilgohar 3y ago
        It's really bizarre that to speak out against any atrocity you must first speak out about all other atrocities of equal or greater measure. The funny thing is, the illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is approaching a century, millions have been permanently displaced over generations, and Israel continues to illegally steal land that is internationally recognized as illegally occupied. The only "peace" deals that Israel has ever offered were ones that cemented and legalized their theft of the majority of Palestine's original land. So, yeah, when you put it that way, the Palestinian cause against the Zionists in Israel is really close to being, if not the most, one of the most outrageous perpetual atrocities of our time.
- nashadelic 3y ago
  That’s one Oct 7 every 4 days for 67 days straight
- brettgo1 3y ago
  Paul, tell me how to get Hamas (the terror group) out of Palestine. They killed 1,200 Israelis and foreigners, wounded 3400, took 100+ hostages including 30 children. What would you do? How can the ongoing conflict in the Gaza Strip, involving groups like Hamas and the state of Israel, be approached to reduce violence and improve safety for all parties involved? What strategies could be considered to address the challenges of urban and underground warfare, the protection of civilians, and the preservation of soldiers' lives, while seeking a path towards peace and stability in the region?
  - pbiggar 3y ago
    I'm not an expert on terrorism, obviously. I just believe that it's immoral to drop bombs on civilians. Like any other conflict, for a positive end result there has to be a meeting of the minds on both sides, committed to peace. So this is going to seem very one sided, but if you look prior to Oct 7, you can't have peace where one side controls everything, has all the resources, and uses them to keep the other population "occupied". That is always going to breed resistance. Very simply, for peace Israel should pull all the settlements out of the West Bank, pull back 50 miles from Gaza for a number of years, remove all checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza, invest in the development of both areas, rebuild the airport they destroyed, stop and sign definitive peace accords allowing free movement and Right of Return for Palestinians, pay reparations for the destruction of Gaza and the damage to the West Bank (plus many other things that I won't list here), and finally on top of that invest in Palestine's future. The only good neighbour is a prosperous one.
    - borski 3y ago
      > So this is going to seem very one sided, but if you look prior to Oct 7, you can't have peace where one side controls everything, has all the resources, and uses them to keep the other population "occupied". That is always going to breed resistance. Except that that's not quite true. Gaza could have continued maintenance of the existing water treatment plant (for example) that was working when Israel pulled out in 2005. Instead, they elected Hamas a year or two later and began firing rockets at Israel. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. > Very simply, for peace Israel should pull all the settlements out of the West Bank, pull back 50 miles from Gaza for a number of years, remove all checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza, invest in the development of both areas, rebuild the airport they destroyed, stop and sign definitive peace accords allowing free movement and Right of Return for Palestinians, pay reparations for the destruction of Gaza and the damage to the West Bank (plus many other things that I won't list here), and finally on top of that invest in Palestine's future. They pulled out completely, including removing every single settler, in 2005. Rebuilding is important, I agree, but if Gaza is going to run its own government, they need to, I don't know, not elect Hamas as perhaps a first-order approximation to "reasonable discourse." Israel isn't going anywhere, no matter what hopes and dreams anyone has. That means they need someone to negotiate with, and Hamas ain't it. In addition, the current government of Israel is garbage and I'm not sure has much interest in a two-state solution at all - but that is a separate (and important!) issue; there have been plenty of years and decades where Israel was committed to a two-state solution, and Gaza... wasn't. Even if Israel did rebuild the airport, allow freedom of movement and right of return, and all that - what guarantees do you have that Hamas would not then just flood into Israel and partake in the destruction of every Jew? None. And that, my friend, is the problem. It is complicated. It is not simple. You are not the first person to have suddenly found the 'secret' to this problem. To think you are, or to think that it is immensely simple, is honestly a bit arrogant, but more importantly, it's also incorrect. The current situation is awful and absolutely terrible; but sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that only Israel is the aggressor, and that suddenly if they pulled out the problem wouldn't exist anymore, is naive at best, and misguided on avaerage.
- borski 3y ago
  Which side killed more has rarely been a good proxy for which side was right.
pbiggar 3y ago
To add to this: the two sides in the war are supposedly Israel and Hamas. Can we not agree that either side killing civilians is wrong?
- Zetobal 3y ago
  Killing in general is wrong.
  - pbiggar 3y ago
    Great, seems we agree. So it should stop and we should speak up about it, right?
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      I have no problem with people speaking up just with people that want to be edgy and write a sob story when a opportunity arises. As I said you deciding to speak up now but not about other conflicts says more about you than you think. Do you really not sleep?
      - pbiggar 3y ago
        I don't usually post this sort of "dear diary" thing either, but when there's a US ally doing a genocide, and we in the west have the opportunity to do something about it, I figured it was better to post. Not sure what I can do about the Congo, but if I get some small set of folks in tech to feel like they can criticize this genocide, we have the ability to change US policy. But yeah, I'm not being facetious. I haven't slept properly since Oct 7.
        Zetobal 3y ago
        Your previous blog posts are still available for everyone to read. To say you don't normally write emotionally loaded is obviously wrong.
        3y ago
jfoweif 3y ago
I would say your post is the false propaganda, pretending everything is one sided and extremely complex, and that people should not be emotional when emotion is the root of ethics. Whatever your thoughts on how this war started, what's currently happening is clearly a massacre of the civilians of Gaza.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  No as you admitted in your other comment you are just biased.
  - jfoweif 3y ago
    Again, how can you be perfectly "objective" writing about something when morality is subjective and based on emotion at its core. We can write about the facts and attempt to convince the audience based on appealing to their moral values, which is what OP is doing.
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      The problem is that people like you who are overthrown by their own emotions talk about objectivity. The only thing you champion with a view like yours is moral relativism.
      - pbiggar 3y ago
        Of course we're biased. 20,000 people have been killed by indescrimimate bombing. I would hope that makes you biased too
        Zetobal 3y ago
        As long as the only solution is a one sided ceasefire there is no solution. That's what you people have to understand. You can be biased as much as you want to just pondering on one solution doesn't help anyone. The people in the region should understand that from experience.
ignoramous 3y ago
[flagged]
- Zetobal 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - anupsurendran 3y ago
    every side has a story to tell. a story without emotion is not worth telling.
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      "story" it's not a fucking story that's the whole point of the discussion.