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I think it's still against Apple's TOS, stating that every web browser must be based on WebKit.

capitainenemo 3y ago
Indeed. Mozilla can complain about it (and they have) but blaming them for the situation serves little purpose. It's entirely in Apple's court.
- bluGill 3y ago
  There are probably laws in some country they can use to fight this, but that is a hard legal battle.
  - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
    The US may be one of those countries depending on the result of the current Epic vs. Apple & Google cases.[0][1] [0] https://www.theverge.com/23994174/epic-google-trial-jury-verdict-monopoly-google-play https://www.theverge.com/23994174/epic-google-trial-jury-ver... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38607424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38607424
temp0826 3y ago
Why can Kagi's Orion browser support extensions on iOS? I recently switched from Firefox because lack of uBO caused huge beef for me and have zero regrets. I'm not paying for Kagi's search service (happy enough with DDG for the majority of my searches), but I can really appreciate their business model and mission (they seem genuine afaict).
- mod50ack 3y ago
  Orion is built on webkit, both on desktop and mobile. It's possible to build WebExt support into a WebKit browser, as they've done. While I definitely prefer FF and Android, I can support the notion of Mozilla integrating extension support into WebKit on their iOS version of FF. But it would take a lot of effort to do that, and Firefox for iOS is ultimately just totally separate from any other Firefox (whereas Android and Desktop Firefox share the same innards).
  - tiltowait 3y ago
    Orion on desktop supports Firefox extensions, so is integration possible? (Not all are compatible.)
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Browsers on macOS can use custom rendering engines. On iOS, they have to all use Apple's provided version of it (which does not support WebExtensions by itself), so the two are not comparable at all.
      - SushiHippie 3y ago
        Orion supports some extensions on IOS too https://blog.kagi.com/orion-features https://blog.kagi.com/orion-features
  - temp0826 3y ago
    Interesting, I always thought the holdup was that third party things used in-app were expressly forbidden because they're not vetted by the app store onboarding process (in addition to the requirement of using webkit). Didn't occur to me that webkit could be extended to support webext either.
    - wharvle 3y ago
      There's long been a grey area for downloading new program logic as e.g. Javascript—the distinction between content and program can be rather fuzzy—and IIRC they made an explicit exception years back for certain categories.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Yeah, Apple likes to say that (and reject apps for violating that rule!), but then there's also things like Linux x86 userspace emulators in the app store that can run unmodified ELF binaries downloaded via curl from any random website... At this point it's just a polite fiction, maintained jointly by Apple and app developers, that allows Apple to maintain a somewhat straight face when saying things like "you can't download third-party code at all" or "all code extending app functionality must be downloaded through our designated mechanism". iSH is one such app, this blog post is very interesting: https://ish.app/blog/default-repository-update https://ish.app/blog/default-repository-update Given the current regulatory scrutiny of their app store, I believe they just don't want to open yet another can of worms by rejecting "browsers" (which are really WebKit wrappers) for injecting third-party JavaScript into all web pages displayed within them, even though by their own rules, they arguably totally should.
- lxgr 3y ago
  WebExtensions are (or at least can be) ultimately just a weird type of HTML+JS app, as far as I understand, so I suspect it's possible to run that in one WebView context on iOS and bridge the required APIs between the extension and browser context using content scripts.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    That is indeed what Orion does, to the extent that this is possible.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
That's incredible. Just write anti-competitive behavior directly into the contract. No one will care.
- nikeee 3y ago
  Actually, it has been mandated by the EU (and other regulators) that they have to allow other browser engines and AFAIK there are already teams at Mozilla/Google that are porting their respective engine to iOS. https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/07/new-iphone-browsers/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/07/new-iphone-browsers/

Indeed. Mozilla can complain about it (and they have) but blaming them for the situation serves little purpose. It's entirely in Apple's court.

bluGill 3y ago
There are probably laws in some country they can use to fight this, but that is a hard legal battle.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  The US may be one of those countries depending on the result of the current Epic vs. Apple & Google cases.[0][1] [0] https://www.theverge.com/23994174/epic-google-trial-jury-verdict-monopoly-google-play https://www.theverge.com/23994174/epic-google-trial-jury-ver... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38607424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38607424

temp0826 3y ago

Why can Kagi's Orion browser support extensions on iOS? I recently switched from Firefox because lack of uBO caused huge beef for me and have zero regrets. I'm not paying for Kagi's search service (happy enough with DDG for the majority of my searches), but I can really appreciate their business model and mission (they seem genuine afaict).

mod50ack 3y ago
Orion is built on webkit, both on desktop and mobile. It's possible to build WebExt support into a WebKit browser, as they've done. While I definitely prefer FF and Android, I can support the notion of Mozilla integrating extension support into WebKit on their iOS version of FF. But it would take a lot of effort to do that, and Firefox for iOS is ultimately just totally separate from any other Firefox (whereas Android and Desktop Firefox share the same innards).
- tiltowait 3y ago
  Orion on desktop supports Firefox extensions, so is integration possible? (Not all are compatible.)
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Browsers on macOS can use custom rendering engines. On iOS, they have to all use Apple's provided version of it (which does not support WebExtensions by itself), so the two are not comparable at all.
    - SushiHippie 3y ago
      Orion supports some extensions on IOS too https://blog.kagi.com/orion-features https://blog.kagi.com/orion-features
- temp0826 3y ago
  Interesting, I always thought the holdup was that third party things used in-app were expressly forbidden because they're not vetted by the app store onboarding process (in addition to the requirement of using webkit). Didn't occur to me that webkit could be extended to support webext either.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    There's long been a grey area for downloading new program logic as e.g. Javascript—the distinction between content and program can be rather fuzzy—and IIRC they made an explicit exception years back for certain categories.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Yeah, Apple likes to say that (and reject apps for violating that rule!), but then there's also things like Linux x86 userspace emulators in the app store that can run unmodified ELF binaries downloaded via curl from any random website... At this point it's just a polite fiction, maintained jointly by Apple and app developers, that allows Apple to maintain a somewhat straight face when saying things like "you can't download third-party code at all" or "all code extending app functionality must be downloaded through our designated mechanism". iSH is one such app, this blog post is very interesting: https://ish.app/blog/default-repository-update https://ish.app/blog/default-repository-update Given the current regulatory scrutiny of their app store, I believe they just don't want to open yet another can of worms by rejecting "browsers" (which are really WebKit wrappers) for injecting third-party JavaScript into all web pages displayed within them, even though by their own rules, they arguably totally should.
lxgr 3y ago
WebExtensions are (or at least can be) ultimately just a weird type of HTML+JS app, as far as I understand, so I suspect it's possible to run that in one WebView context on iOS and bridge the required APIs between the extension and browser context using content scripts.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  That is indeed what Orion does, to the extent that this is possible.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

That's incredible. Just write anti-competitive behavior directly into the contract. No one will care.

nikeee 3y ago
Actually, it has been mandated by the EU (and other regulators) that they have to allow other browser engines and AFAIK there are already teams at Mozilla/Google that are porting their respective engine to iOS. https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/07/new-iphone-browsers/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/07/new-iphone-browsers/