6 ms·

Crypto is not zero sum since new value is created.

by injeolmi_love 3y ago

dpflan 3y ago
Yes, FTX knows a lot about value creation from thin air.
throwaway29812 3y ago
and destroyed ..
WalterSear 3y ago
Sure. Lots of new bridges to sell - on the blockchain.
desert_rue 3y ago
It’s not the expanding supply of Bitcoin that creates value; it is the people putting money in at higher rates.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> Crypto is not zero sum since new value is created. I'll bite, because I struggle to find people who think this. What value is created?
- logicchains 3y ago
  All the people who managed to buy drugs safely without risking being robbed by some shady street dealer?
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    How's that value created by bitcoin? Cash also creates that value.
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  Personally, the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system. For other people I’ve seen a wide variety of things they consider valuable that I don’t care for. Trading, community, loans, art, gaming for examples.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Personally, the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system. Doesn't cash also fulfil these? I'd have thought bitcoin is more fickle than cash. > For other people I’ve seen a wide variety of things they consider valuable that I don’t care for. Trading, community, loans, art, gaming for examples. Sorry - is this crypto related? Or just examples of things people like?
    - injeolmi_love 3y ago
      I don’t use Bitcoin because it’s too slow and expensive. Other people do find value in it. Carrying more than $10k in cash is dangerous, and likely to be seized during international travel. That’s a list of things people use crypto for. Obviously, if they preferred the non crypto version of those services, they would use them instead.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        What I mean is I can do all this with my bank: > the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system What's the difference, that is valuable enough to explain the bitcoin price differences?
        injeolmi_love 3y ago
        What’s your bank? I’d like an account there. Every one I’ve checked so far freezes accounts and has a painful process for international wire transfers.
pkkm 3y ago
How so? It's pretty easy to see how economic value can be created via stocks and bonds: they're basically indirect ways to give companies or governments money for investment. That money can then be used to hire more/better people, buy equipment, or build infrastructure, which will hopefully produce more value than it cost. What's the equivalent in cryptocurrency speculation or "yield farming"? Can you explain where the value actually comes from there?
- roenxi 3y ago
  Providing a consistent-over-time and tamper-proof record of transfers. It is pretty obvious how that provides value; if you have a system that provides that and one that doesn't, we'd expect the first to be more valuable. We're also seeing the first asset in history which can't be reliably confiscated without the cooperation of its owner which is also worth a lot. Involuntary rules change mid-game by local authorities has been the cost of doing business for all of human history and it is quite exciting to see that change. Also, if you're assumption is that all government regulation is automatically good then we don't have common ground on this one but ... most government regulation is destructive. The market for bitcoin is implicitly showing the enormous costs of financial regulation where it makes sense to burn absurd amounts of energy rather than get involved in the financial system. Shaking that off is likely to lead to better outcomes. Freer systems tend to prosper more than systems people don't want to be in.
  - pkkm 3y ago
    To be honest, I'm still not sure what practical usage scenarios you have in mind. Is it protecting your money from terrible economic policies if you live in a country like Venezuela? Or are you envisioning a whole new financial sector, free from existing financial regulation? In the latter case, while I don't think that all government regulation is good, I don't see how transitioning to cryptocurrency would help you avoid its problems. After all, if you're doing business somewhere, you have to obey that place's laws no matter which currency you're using to do business.
    - roenxi 3y ago

Crypto is not zero sum since new value is created.

dpflan 3y ago

Yes, FTX knows a lot about value creation from thin air.

throwaway29812 3y ago

and destroyed ..

WalterSear 3y ago

Sure. Lots of new bridges to sell - on the blockchain.

desert_rue 3y ago

It’s not the expanding supply of Bitcoin that creates value; it is the people putting money in at higher rates.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> Crypto is not zero sum since new value is created. I'll bite, because I struggle to find people who think this. What value is created?

logicchains 3y ago
All the people who managed to buy drugs safely without risking being robbed by some shady street dealer?
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  How's that value created by bitcoin? Cash also creates that value.
injeolmi_love 3y ago
Personally, the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system. For other people I’ve seen a wide variety of things they consider valuable that I don’t care for. Trading, community, loans, art, gaming for examples.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Personally, the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system. Doesn't cash also fulfil these? I'd have thought bitcoin is more fickle than cash. > For other people I’ve seen a wide variety of things they consider valuable that I don’t care for. Trading, community, loans, art, gaming for examples. Sorry - is this crypto related? Or just examples of things people like?
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    I don’t use Bitcoin because it’s too slow and expensive. Other people do find value in it. Carrying more than $10k in cash is dangerous, and likely to be seized during international travel. That’s a list of things people use crypto for. Obviously, if they preferred the non crypto version of those services, they would use them instead.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      What I mean is I can do all this with my bank: > the ability to always have access to my money, accept contracts internationally, and to be protected from a fickle financial system What's the difference, that is valuable enough to explain the bitcoin price differences?
      - injeolmi_love 3y ago
        What’s your bank? I’d like an account there. Every one I’ve checked so far freezes accounts and has a painful process for international wire transfers.

pkkm 3y ago

How so? It's pretty easy to see how economic value can be created via stocks and bonds: they're basically indirect ways to give companies or governments money for investment. That money can then be used to hire more/better people, buy equipment, or build infrastructure, which will hopefully produce more value than it cost. What's the equivalent in cryptocurrency speculation or "yield farming"? Can you explain where the value actually comes from there?

roenxi 3y ago
Providing a consistent-over-time and tamper-proof record of transfers. It is pretty obvious how that provides value; if you have a system that provides that and one that doesn't, we'd expect the first to be more valuable. We're also seeing the first asset in history which can't be reliably confiscated without the cooperation of its owner which is also worth a lot. Involuntary rules change mid-game by local authorities has been the cost of doing business for all of human history and it is quite exciting to see that change. Also, if you're assumption is that all government regulation is automatically good then we don't have common ground on this one but ... most government regulation is destructive. The market for bitcoin is implicitly showing the enormous costs of financial regulation where it makes sense to burn absurd amounts of energy rather than get involved in the financial system. Shaking that off is likely to lead to better outcomes. Freer systems tend to prosper more than systems people don't want to be in.
- pkkm 3y ago
  To be honest, I'm still not sure what practical usage scenarios you have in mind. Is it protecting your money from terrible economic policies if you live in a country like Venezuela? Or are you envisioning a whole new financial sector, free from existing financial regulation? In the latter case, while I don't think that all government regulation is good, I don't see how transitioning to cryptocurrency would help you avoid its problems. After all, if you're doing business somewhere, you have to obey that place's laws no matter which currency you're using to do business.
  - roenxi 3y ago