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> And so as policymakers rushed to equip the police with cameras, they often failed to grapple with a fundamental question: Who would control the footage? Inste

> And so as policymakers rushed to equip the police with cameras, they often failed to grapple with a fundamental question: Who would control the footage? Instead, they defaulted to leaving police departments [..] with the power to decide what is recorded, who can see it and when. I think it's incredibly naive to portray this as a "defaulting" or "failing to grapple with a fundamental question". I am 100% certain "who controls the footage" was the first question out of the police brass' mouths, and the crucial point in negotiations, where conceding to let the police themselves control the footage allowed the use of bodycams in the first place. Nothing was left to chance here, this is entirely deliberate.

aaomidi 3y ago
Why are we negotiating with police for this anyway? And if the police union is threatening to strike, then who cares. Those cops are not the ones we want anyway. Rehire.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > Why are we negotiating with police for this anyway? Because if you don't, you get election ads with scary looking footage and a voice-over that says something like: "Mayor/Governor/whatever Smith's anti-police crusade is putting you and your family in danger. This November, send a message by voting out the pro-crime politicians." You could argue that politicians should make a principled stand against this and do the right thing anyway, and you're right in a moral sense. But there's good odds that those guys will get replaced with people who are more willing to give the police what they want.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    > give the police what they want Like the ability to actually do something when a looter horde raids a department store?
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      In the context of the conversation, the interpretation of "give police what they want," is clearly something like, "defer to the departments about how they handle bodycam footage, policies about recording, and discipline for officers that don't conform to related laws and policies." The fact that you chose an unrelated topic couched in deliberately inflammatory language only shows bad faith on your part.
      - waihtis 3y ago
        true and I apologize. But I also think it can be tied to the larger picture where the police is both forced into better accountability (good) and stripped down of the ability to do their job (bad), for which "organizational resistance" is a completely valid countermeasure.
        greedo 3y ago
        Can you list some of the ways police have been stripped of their ability to do their job?
        waihtis 3y ago
        Some DA's sudden refusal to prosecute a variety of property and drug crimes is a good example. No use catching criminals if they're just let loose.
        Der_Einzige 3y ago
        See all the law changes in Oregon since 2018. Cops for example can’t pull you over for ghetto cars anymore. Cops can’t use the smell of weed as probable cause, and far far more.
        greedo 3y ago
        Nice terminology about the cars.../s And pot is legal in Oregon, so why would the smell be probable cause? Besides, cops invent PC on a routine basis.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  If we dont give them what they want they stop working and crime increases. It happens every couple years in my city when the police are negotiating their contract. Having zero police is no acceptable to voters and would lead to losing re-election for almost every politician that tries to lock them out.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  Doesn’t matter how much you pay them, if the cops think the people hate them, they will refuse to take jobs in a locality. Portland PD is paying far above average and is funded to hire hundreds of cops, but no one applies because the cops know they’re muzzled in Portland and they know that the local people abd laws don’t support a “thin blue line” The remaining cops who stayed on have “quiet quit” and they use that as a tactic to get the people to give them more power. It’s a terrible situation. The cops know they can hold the people hostage and they aggressively do that.
engineer_22 3y ago
If you don't believe Management Confidential down at the department is worthy of the public trust, you have a bigger problem on your hands. In my locale those folks are elected or appointed, so if you cant trust them, yea, you've got a problem.
- danaris 3y ago
  A number of very high-profile police departments—in their entirety—have shown themselves empirically to be unworthy of the public trust in the past few years. Yes, we have a very big problem on our hands. The system itself is deeply corrupted by perverse incentives and by a very large number of people with strong leanings toward authoritarianism and fascism.
- greedo 3y ago
  There's a group that both funds office seekers, as well as votes consistently. Police unions...
indymike 3y ago
Body cameras + youtube/x/tiktok have been absolute lifesavers for people assaulted or falsely arrested. Video is really the only buttress against "your word versus OUR WORD". At the same time, talking to my neighbors (I have about five officers that live on my block), they like the cameras because most of the time they either prove the case, or show that there really was no abuse (yes, the arrestee did punch the cop). I think where the issues is when something happens that creates a liability. An officer violates the law, or someone's rights while making an arrest. It creates a situation where the incentive is to railroad the accused at all costs so the accused cannot file or have little chance to win a federal civil rights lawsuit. In these cases it's amazing how difficult to get that video can be.

aaomidi 3y ago

Why are we negotiating with police for this anyway? And if the police union is threatening to strike, then who cares. Those cops are not the ones we want anyway. Rehire.

meepmorp 3y ago
> Why are we negotiating with police for this anyway? Because if you don't, you get election ads with scary looking footage and a voice-over that says something like: "Mayor/Governor/whatever Smith's anti-police crusade is putting you and your family in danger. This November, send a message by voting out the pro-crime politicians." You could argue that politicians should make a principled stand against this and do the right thing anyway, and you're right in a moral sense. But there's good odds that those guys will get replaced with people who are more willing to give the police what they want.
- waihtis 3y ago
  > give the police what they want Like the ability to actually do something when a looter horde raids a department store?
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    In the context of the conversation, the interpretation of "give police what they want," is clearly something like, "defer to the departments about how they handle bodycam footage, policies about recording, and discipline for officers that don't conform to related laws and policies." The fact that you chose an unrelated topic couched in deliberately inflammatory language only shows bad faith on your part.
    - waihtis 3y ago
      true and I apologize. But I also think it can be tied to the larger picture where the police is both forced into better accountability (good) and stripped down of the ability to do their job (bad), for which "organizational resistance" is a completely valid countermeasure.
      - greedo 3y ago
        Can you list some of the ways police have been stripped of their ability to do their job?
        waihtis 3y ago
        Some DA's sudden refusal to prosecute a variety of property and drug crimes is a good example. No use catching criminals if they're just let loose.
        Der_Einzige 3y ago
        See all the law changes in Oregon since 2018. Cops for example can’t pull you over for ghetto cars anymore. Cops can’t use the smell of weed as probable cause, and far far more.
        greedo 3y ago
        Nice terminology about the cars.../s And pot is legal in Oregon, so why would the smell be probable cause? Besides, cops invent PC on a routine basis.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
If we dont give them what they want they stop working and crime increases. It happens every couple years in my city when the police are negotiating their contract. Having zero police is no acceptable to voters and would lead to losing re-election for almost every politician that tries to lock them out.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Doesn’t matter how much you pay them, if the cops think the people hate them, they will refuse to take jobs in a locality. Portland PD is paying far above average and is funded to hire hundreds of cops, but no one applies because the cops know they’re muzzled in Portland and they know that the local people abd laws don’t support a “thin blue line” The remaining cops who stayed on have “quiet quit” and they use that as a tactic to get the people to give them more power. It’s a terrible situation. The cops know they can hold the people hostage and they aggressively do that.

engineer_22 3y ago

If you don't believe Management Confidential down at the department is worthy of the public trust, you have a bigger problem on your hands. In my locale those folks are elected or appointed, so if you cant trust them, yea, you've got a problem.

danaris 3y ago
A number of very high-profile police departments—in their entirety—have shown themselves empirically to be unworthy of the public trust in the past few years. Yes, we have a very big problem on our hands. The system itself is deeply corrupted by perverse incentives and by a very large number of people with strong leanings toward authoritarianism and fascism.
greedo 3y ago
There's a group that both funds office seekers, as well as votes consistently. Police unions...

indymike 3y ago

Body cameras + youtube/x/tiktok have been absolute lifesavers for people assaulted or falsely arrested. Video is really the only buttress against "your word versus OUR WORD". At the same time, talking to my neighbors (I have about five officers that live on my block), they like the cameras because most of the time they either prove the case, or show that there really was no abuse (yes, the arrestee did punch the cop). I think where the issues is when something happens that creates a liability. An officer violates the law, or someone's rights while making an arrest. It creates a situation where the incentive is to railroad the accused at all costs so the accused cannot file or have little chance to win a federal civil rights lawsuit. In these cases it's amazing how difficult to get that video can be.