3 ms·

Spanish, castilian does not exist

dragonwriter 3y ago
Castilian absolutely exists, and us more specific than “Spanish”. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Castilian https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Castilian
- cosmojg 3y ago
  From Wikipedia[1]: > Castilian (castellano), that is, Spanish, is the native language of the Castilians. Its origin is traditionally ascribed to an area south of the Cordillera Cantábrica, including the upper Ebro valley, in northern Spain, around the 8th and 9th centuries; however the first written standard was developed in the 13th century in the southern city of Toledo. It is descended from the Vulgar Latin of the Roman Empire, with Arabic influences, and perhaps Basque as well. During the Reconquista in the Middle Ages, it was brought to the south of Spain where it replaced the languages that were spoken in the former Moorish controlled zones, such as the local form of related Latin dialects now referred to as Mozarabic, and the Arabic that had been introduced by the Muslims. In this process Castilian absorbed many traits from these languages, some of which continue to be used today. Outside of Spain and a few Latin American countries, Castilian is now usually referred to as Spanish. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    From the page you linked: > Name of the language > In Spain and in some other parts of the Spanish-speaking world, Spanish is called not only español but also castellano (Castilian), the language from the Kingdom of Castile, contrasting it with other languages spoken in Spain such as Galician, Basque, Asturian, Catalan, Aragonese and Occitan. > The Spanish Constitution of 1978 uses the term castellano to define the official language of the whole of Spain, in contrast to las demás lenguas españolas (lit. "the other Spanish languages").
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    - anthk 3y ago
      It's the same language. I'm a Spaniard, so I know it well. Name it the way you'd like, it can be called Spanish, Español or Castellano everywhere from Mexico to Patagonia, and from The Canaries up to the Pyrenees.
      - enriquto 3y ago
        > from Mexico to Patagonia, and from The Canaries up to the Pyrenees. Sounds a bit imperialistic? Notwithstanding the tens of millions of native speakers of autochtone non-spanish languages in these territories: Mapuche (260K), Quechua (7.2M), Aymara (1.7M), Guaraní (6.1M), Wayuu (400K), Mayan (6M), Miskito (150K), Garifuna (120K), Nahuatl (1.7M), Mixtec (530K), Catalan (4.1M), Basque (750K), Galician (2.4M). Spanish is quickly eroding all of these, but they still exist! (And this only counts native speakers. The number of people who are fluent in Guarani or Catalan is certainly more than the double of that.)
        anthk 3y ago
        Not imperialistic. Would you say the same of the English language too? BTW, On Basque, euskaraz primeran mintza naiteke.
        enriquto 3y ago
        > Not imperialistic. Would you say the same of the English language too? Yes, of course? When I think of imperialism the first thing that comes to my mind is precisely "the bri'ish empi'ah and its commonwealth"! If English is currently the world's default language is just because of the triumph of English/American imperialism.
      - amenhotep 3y ago
        "name it the way you'd like, it can be called Spanish" is a very different proposition to "[you should say] Spanish, Castilian does not exist [and you are wrong to use that name]", which was the angle of the poster who kicked all this off.
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- vlugorilla 3y ago
  There is a bit of a controversy around this. And I don't say you are wrong. It's just that I personally consider that Castilian should not be used and does no longer exist. Here's why I think it like so: Castilian originated as one of several Romance dialects in the Iberian Peninsula. It developed in the Kingdom of Castile during the Middle Ages, distinct from other regional languages like Catalan or Galician. With the unification of Spain, Castilian gained prominence, eventually evolving into modern Spanish. This was not merely a linguistic shift but also a result of political and cultural dynamics. The language we now call Spanish has absorbed influences from Arabic, indigenous languages of the Americas, and others, diverging significantly from its medieval Castilian origins. For this, Castilian has now disappeared, you just need to read how Castilian was written to see it has nothing to do with modern Spanish. Today, Spanish is spoken by over 500 million people worldwide. In contrast, the Castilian region of Spain has a much smaller population (~3M). Referring to the language as Spanish acknowledges its extensive global presence and its modern version. Just as we refer to the language originating in Tuscany as Italian, not Tuscanian, calling the language from Castile 'Spanish' aligns with common linguistic naming conventions. Languages often take their names from the nations or cultural entities they are associated with, not their specific regions of origin. Modern linguistic institutions, like the Real Academia Española, regard 'Castilian' and 'Spanish' as synonyms but recommend 'Spanish' for its inclusive and global character.
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    This is a nice and thoughtful post and I agree mostly. I'd like to add that my use of the word "Castilian" reflects my experience of usage of the term here in Barcelona (when speaking "Spanish", Catalan, and English). It's not a hard rule of course, but people are especially likely to refer to Castille over Hispania when distinguishing from other languages spoken historically within the country. The term also usefully refers to the prestige dialect of Spanish, as might be spoken in Madrid. This is useful to distinguish from e.g. the "al-andalus" (Andalusian) spoken in the south which is more treated as a dialect than a separate language (though the distinction is of course fuzzy). (On the other hand Barcelona in particular has a significant population of sudamericanos who will usually say "español", certainly that term is well used and understood.)
snvzz 3y ago
Catalan is not Castilian. (and Castilian exists)
BonitaPersona 3y ago
In spanish it is interchangeably called castellano or spanish. Outside Spain it is always called spanish. The same way valencian is decidedly called valencian in Valencia, but people from Catalonia insist on calling it "simply a dialect of catalonian". The same way hispanics in America are called "latinos", while americans with italian and french heritage are not. The same way americans with english heritage aren't called "anglos" but simply "americans". Once you begin actually looking at the language used you understand that it is NEVER unintentional

Castilian absolutely exists, and us more specific than “Spanish”. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Castilian https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Castilian

cosmojg 3y ago
From Wikipedia[1]: > Castilian (castellano), that is, Spanish, is the native language of the Castilians. Its origin is traditionally ascribed to an area south of the Cordillera Cantábrica, including the upper Ebro valley, in northern Spain, around the 8th and 9th centuries; however the first written standard was developed in the 13th century in the southern city of Toledo. It is descended from the Vulgar Latin of the Roman Empire, with Arabic influences, and perhaps Basque as well. During the Reconquista in the Middle Ages, it was brought to the south of Spain where it replaced the languages that were spoken in the former Moorish controlled zones, such as the local form of related Latin dialects now referred to as Mozarabic, and the Arabic that had been introduced by the Muslims. In this process Castilian absorbed many traits from these languages, some of which continue to be used today. Outside of Spain and a few Latin American countries, Castilian is now usually referred to as Spanish. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language
- Y_Y 3y ago
  From the page you linked: > Name of the language > In Spain and in some other parts of the Spanish-speaking world, Spanish is called not only español but also castellano (Castilian), the language from the Kingdom of Castile, contrasting it with other languages spoken in Spain such as Galician, Basque, Asturian, Catalan, Aragonese and Occitan. > The Spanish Constitution of 1978 uses the term castellano to define the official language of the whole of Spain, in contrast to las demás lenguas españolas (lit. "the other Spanish languages").
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  - anthk 3y ago
    It's the same language. I'm a Spaniard, so I know it well. Name it the way you'd like, it can be called Spanish, Español or Castellano everywhere from Mexico to Patagonia, and from The Canaries up to the Pyrenees.
    - enriquto 3y ago
      > from Mexico to Patagonia, and from The Canaries up to the Pyrenees. Sounds a bit imperialistic? Notwithstanding the tens of millions of native speakers of autochtone non-spanish languages in these territories: Mapuche (260K), Quechua (7.2M), Aymara (1.7M), Guaraní (6.1M), Wayuu (400K), Mayan (6M), Miskito (150K), Garifuna (120K), Nahuatl (1.7M), Mixtec (530K), Catalan (4.1M), Basque (750K), Galician (2.4M). Spanish is quickly eroding all of these, but they still exist! (And this only counts native speakers. The number of people who are fluent in Guarani or Catalan is certainly more than the double of that.)
      - anthk 3y ago
        Not imperialistic. Would you say the same of the English language too? BTW, On Basque, euskaraz primeran mintza naiteke.
        enriquto 3y ago
        > Not imperialistic. Would you say the same of the English language too? Yes, of course? When I think of imperialism the first thing that comes to my mind is precisely "the bri'ish empi'ah and its commonwealth"! If English is currently the world's default language is just because of the triumph of English/American imperialism.
    - amenhotep 3y ago
      "name it the way you'd like, it can be called Spanish" is a very different proposition to "[you should say] Spanish, Castilian does not exist [and you are wrong to use that name]", which was the angle of the poster who kicked all this off.
deleted 3y ago
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vlugorilla 3y ago
There is a bit of a controversy around this. And I don't say you are wrong. It's just that I personally consider that Castilian should not be used and does no longer exist. Here's why I think it like so: Castilian originated as one of several Romance dialects in the Iberian Peninsula. It developed in the Kingdom of Castile during the Middle Ages, distinct from other regional languages like Catalan or Galician. With the unification of Spain, Castilian gained prominence, eventually evolving into modern Spanish. This was not merely a linguistic shift but also a result of political and cultural dynamics. The language we now call Spanish has absorbed influences from Arabic, indigenous languages of the Americas, and others, diverging significantly from its medieval Castilian origins. For this, Castilian has now disappeared, you just need to read how Castilian was written to see it has nothing to do with modern Spanish. Today, Spanish is spoken by over 500 million people worldwide. In contrast, the Castilian region of Spain has a much smaller population (~3M). Referring to the language as Spanish acknowledges its extensive global presence and its modern version. Just as we refer to the language originating in Tuscany as Italian, not Tuscanian, calling the language from Castile 'Spanish' aligns with common linguistic naming conventions. Languages often take their names from the nations or cultural entities they are associated with, not their specific regions of origin. Modern linguistic institutions, like the Real Academia Española, regard 'Castilian' and 'Spanish' as synonyms but recommend 'Spanish' for its inclusive and global character.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  This is a nice and thoughtful post and I agree mostly. I'd like to add that my use of the word "Castilian" reflects my experience of usage of the term here in Barcelona (when speaking "Spanish", Catalan, and English). It's not a hard rule of course, but people are especially likely to refer to Castille over Hispania when distinguishing from other languages spoken historically within the country. The term also usefully refers to the prestige dialect of Spanish, as might be spoken in Madrid. This is useful to distinguish from e.g. the "al-andalus" (Andalusian) spoken in the south which is more treated as a dialect than a separate language (though the distinction is of course fuzzy). (On the other hand Barcelona in particular has a significant population of sudamericanos who will usually say "español", certainly that term is well used and understood.)

snvzz 3y ago

Catalan is not Castilian. (and Castilian exists)

BonitaPersona 3y ago

In spanish it is interchangeably called castellano or spanish. Outside Spain it is always called spanish. The same way valencian is decidedly called valencian in Valencia, but people from Catalonia insist on calling it "simply a dialect of catalonian". The same way hispanics in America are called "latinos", while americans with italian and french heritage are not. The same way americans with english heritage aren't called "anglos" but simply "americans". Once you begin actually looking at the language used you understand that it is NEVER unintentional