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> overturning previous assumptions that competition and conflict were absent in hunter–gatherer societies What about Jericho? It has a wall that is older than

> overturning previous assumptions that competition and conflict were absent in hunter–gatherer societies What about Jericho? It has a wall that is older than this. Maybe it doesn't fall into the classification of "fortress" but it still already seems to show there was some sort of conflict or competition going on at that time. There was also a tower but from what I remember, the location of the tower at Jericho would be a little odd as a defensive structure. My point is there are well known structures at Jericho that are considered to be "defensive" and these are largely agreed to predate the findings in this article. So why would these recent findings overturn this thinking of Jericho did not?

notahacker 3y ago
Its claim to be "the oldest" appears to be fairly narrowly delineated as "promontory hillfort", whereas Jericho was a full blown town and Tell Qaramel just a single tower. It's also in a completely different world region, of course. The rest seems to be the author hinting at the classic pop science trope of "if it hasn't been discovered before it must be radically challenging an incorrect old paradigm". Whereas "semipermanent structures in defensible positions in the middle of hunting grounds" sounds like exactly what someone that believes in a broader theory of simple hunter-gatherer tribes gradually progressing into complex agricultural societies would expect. (Likewise Gokpeli Tepe is problematic for anyone committed to the idea of "civilisation" having a particular start date, but hunter gatherers establishing some sort of [semi]permanent settlements near plains full of nutritious wild grasses and probably drawing on the labour resources of the surrounding hunting tribes to help with monument-building is entirely consistent with the general notion of hunter gatherers gradually evolving into more complex urban societies) Hunter gatherers needing defensive walls long before their neighbours acquired agriculture-supported armies is pretty bad for the "violent competition didn't emerge until agriculture and large scale organisation" theorists, but I'm not sure this has ever really been a mainstream academic view.

notahacker 3y ago

Its claim to be "the oldest" appears to be fairly narrowly delineated as "promontory hillfort", whereas Jericho was a full blown town and Tell Qaramel just a single tower. It's also in a completely different world region, of course. The rest seems to be the author hinting at the classic pop science trope of "if it hasn't been discovered before it must be radically challenging an incorrect old paradigm". Whereas "semipermanent structures in defensible positions in the middle of hunting grounds" sounds like exactly what someone that believes in a broader theory of simple hunter-gatherer tribes gradually progressing into complex agricultural societies would expect. (Likewise Gokpeli Tepe is problematic for anyone committed to the idea of "civilisation" having a particular start date, but hunter gatherers establishing some sort of [semi]permanent settlements near plains full of nutritious wild grasses and probably drawing on the labour resources of the surrounding hunting tribes to help with monument-building is entirely consistent with the general notion of hunter gatherers gradually evolving into more complex urban societies) Hunter gatherers needing defensive walls long before their neighbours acquired agriculture-supported armies is pretty bad for the "violent competition didn't emerge until agriculture and large scale organisation" theorists, but I'm not sure this has ever really been a mainstream academic view.