7 ms·

Ledger has been hacked so many times now i've lost count. I remember buying one in 2019, and shortly thereafter all customer data was dumped on the internet en

Ledger has been hacked so many times now i've lost count. I remember buying one in 2019, and shortly thereafter all customer data was dumped on the internet endangering everyone who bought one. Then after deep diving the tech i threw it in the trash, it seemed like security theatre product. There's also been so many phishing attempts, fake ledgers sold, bricked ones losing funds, it's total shitshow that ecosystem if you check their subreddit going back in time. The more you rely on 3. parties, and the more obfuscated your setup is, the more unsafe your data is. I just use isolated cheap laptops and encrypted usb's now.

lxgr 3y ago
Do you build and program these laptops and USB drives yourself?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
nullstyle 3y ago
"bricked ones losing funds" That's the user's fault. The product makes it very clear you need to create a recovery sheet and store it in a safe deposit box or other secure place. If you actively ignore the instructions you deserve it. Could you share some of your deep dive and tell us about what concerns you found? I use one of their wallets and I'd like to investigate more now as well.
rekoil 3y ago
A few months ago they also pushed a new feature which, if enabled, literally exfiltrated your secret key to external parties, requiring only 2 to reassemble the full key... Avoid Avoid Avoid
dboreham 3y ago
The only reason things like Ledger exist is because regular smart cards (e.g. Yubikey) don't yet support the signature schemes used on blockchains.
- meehow 3y ago
  Regular smart cards also don't have screens, so it would mean totally blind signing. That's the problem which hardware wallets are solving, but sometimes the screen is just too small to show all the details of complex transactions.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  Yubikeys are fine for basic sign-in/sign-out functionality, but even on a basic web app, your auth tokens are something else independent of your Yubikey signature.
meowface 3y ago
>I just use isolated cheap laptops and encrypted usb's now. I figure this isn't practical for most end users. Is there an alternative hardware wallet that you think is okay for most people? How do you feel about Trezor?
- Rastonbury 3y ago
  I don't know which it more practical trusting an exchange, paying a hardware wallet or maybe encrypted file in s3
- anders16 3y ago
  Coldcard! https://coldcard.com/ https://coldcard.com/
  - yownie 3y ago
    I'm curious about coldcard as well, however what would you say are the benefits over a trezor / ledger device?
- bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
  How? My set up is less secure, but more auditable than hardware wallets--a dedicated hard disk running a portable Linux doing nothing else than crypto. And only for sending out funds. For receiving funds I use my normal operating system with view-only keys.
- pants2 3y ago
  The modern solution is to use MPC wallets like ZenGo.
  - ametrau 3y ago
    I must be missing something. It couldn’t be as dumb as using a photo of your face as the key.
    - arifromzengo 3y ago
irusensei 3y ago
Same here. The most infuriating thing is how they downplayed the data breach, specially considering some of their customers live in dangerous countries. I’ve switched to a Coldcard. Everything from purchase to the device operation seems to be highly focused on security and protections against tampering. No client software… it’s all sneakernet. Coinkite even deleted my customer data a few weeks after purchase without me having to request. I still have my ledger. I think it is a nice device but when I tried to repurpose it as an yubikey of sorts (it has fido and gpg micro apps) it didn’t actually worked alright. I never trusted ledger live though.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
I've found the most secure key management is to keep important keys offline and stored on paper and only load them into a live tails/whonix system for brief uses. I even contributed a binary decoding feature to zbar to let me store them on printed QR codes and easily input them back in. > bricked ones losing funds Well of course. It's just a computer and all computers fail. Cheap laptops can also fail and destroy your keys. USB flash storage failure is even more likely. This is the number one argument for storing keys on paper which is actually known to last centuries.
magento 3y ago
Phishing attempts are irrelevant as long as users check TXes before they sign. Fake ledgers are also irrelevant because the software does a check if the hardware is legit. Bricked Ledgers losing funds is only a thing if a user didn't keep a backup of their seed phrase, which would make them lose funds regardless of what wallet they used.

lxgr 3y ago

Do you build and program these laptops and USB drives yourself?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

nullstyle 3y ago

"bricked ones losing funds" That's the user's fault. The product makes it very clear you need to create a recovery sheet and store it in a safe deposit box or other secure place. If you actively ignore the instructions you deserve it. Could you share some of your deep dive and tell us about what concerns you found? I use one of their wallets and I'd like to investigate more now as well.

rekoil 3y ago

A few months ago they also pushed a new feature which, if enabled, literally exfiltrated your secret key to external parties, requiring only 2 to reassemble the full key... Avoid Avoid Avoid

dboreham 3y ago

The only reason things like Ledger exist is because regular smart cards (e.g. Yubikey) don't yet support the signature schemes used on blockchains.

meehow 3y ago
Regular smart cards also don't have screens, so it would mean totally blind signing. That's the problem which hardware wallets are solving, but sometimes the screen is just too small to show all the details of complex transactions.
chrisco255 3y ago
Yubikeys are fine for basic sign-in/sign-out functionality, but even on a basic web app, your auth tokens are something else independent of your Yubikey signature.

meowface 3y ago

>I just use isolated cheap laptops and encrypted usb's now. I figure this isn't practical for most end users. Is there an alternative hardware wallet that you think is okay for most people? How do you feel about Trezor?

Rastonbury 3y ago
I don't know which it more practical trusting an exchange, paying a hardware wallet or maybe encrypted file in s3
anders16 3y ago
Coldcard! https://coldcard.com/ https://coldcard.com/
- yownie 3y ago
  I'm curious about coldcard as well, however what would you say are the benefits over a trezor / ledger device?
bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
How? My set up is less secure, but more auditable than hardware wallets--a dedicated hard disk running a portable Linux doing nothing else than crypto. And only for sending out funds. For receiving funds I use my normal operating system with view-only keys.
pants2 3y ago
The modern solution is to use MPC wallets like ZenGo.
- ametrau 3y ago
  I must be missing something. It couldn’t be as dumb as using a photo of your face as the key.
  - arifromzengo 3y ago

irusensei 3y ago

Same here. The most infuriating thing is how they downplayed the data breach, specially considering some of their customers live in dangerous countries. I’ve switched to a Coldcard. Everything from purchase to the device operation seems to be highly focused on security and protections against tampering. No client software… it’s all sneakernet. Coinkite even deleted my customer data a few weeks after purchase without me having to request. I still have my ledger. I think it is a nice device but when I tried to repurpose it as an yubikey of sorts (it has fido and gpg micro apps) it didn’t actually worked alright. I never trusted ledger live though.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

I've found the most secure key management is to keep important keys offline and stored on paper and only load them into a live tails/whonix system for brief uses. I even contributed a binary decoding feature to zbar to let me store them on printed QR codes and easily input them back in. > bricked ones losing funds Well of course. It's just a computer and all computers fail. Cheap laptops can also fail and destroy your keys. USB flash storage failure is even more likely. This is the number one argument for storing keys on paper which is actually known to last centuries.

magento 3y ago

Phishing attempts are irrelevant as long as users check TXes before they sign. Fake ledgers are also irrelevant because the software does a check if the hardware is legit. Bricked Ledgers losing funds is only a thing if a user didn't keep a backup of their seed phrase, which would make them lose funds regardless of what wallet they used.