5 ms·

I kind of get that reasoning. But then on the other hand, it’s just not well supported by the vast majority of societies actually observed. Everywhere we go or

I kind of get that reasoning. But then on the other hand, it’s just not well supported by the vast majority of societies actually observed. Everywhere we go or went to, people already had weapons, and knew how to use them against other humans. Everywhere the first thing to get their hands on were better weapons to gain the upper hand over some pre-existing enemies. With the exceptions, such as Moriori, being few and far between. And killed. The continuity of inter-group violence throughout pretty much any known culture is so strong, that I really find the notion that it somehow suddenly appeared out of nowhere because ‘farming’ really weird.

ajb 3y ago
I can't find the reference right now, but one example is supposedly aboriginal Australian societies. I read somewhere that one thesis was the because those societies often lived in small groups which might not be genetically viable on their own, and they were widely separated due to the low carrying capacity of the land, when groups encountered each other they would be more interested in, ahem, exchanging genetic material, than fighting. And since they lived that way until recently (in historical terms) there is at least some memory of what happened. But personally I know nothing about Australian aboriginal societies and that might be complete rubbish. In any case of doesn't seem likely to be representative of cultures living in areas that would support a denser population.
- throwaway4aday 3y ago
  "exchanging genetic material" is also a major motivation for violence. Kidnapping women as a way of obtaining a bride or brides has been practiced throughout history all over the world and is still practiced in some groups today. Living in a state of nature means no laws and the only restriction on your actions is the willingness and ability of others to physically stop you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I wonder if there was a similar phenomena in Australian to North America, where basically all observations were of cultures radically altered and depopulated by disease.
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Depopulation by disease started with the arrival of Europeans, right? Apparently Native Americans knew how to do genocide also before European arrival: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre
- jgilias 3y ago
  And, apparently, no, not really: https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/aborigines/2022/07/truth-telling-and-aboriginal-tribal-warfare/ https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/aborigines/2022/07/truth-tel...
ch4s3 3y ago
You need enough food to feed enough fighting age men in order for the economics of raising to even work. If a band of 50 or so loses more than a few prime age men they might not be able to feed themselves.

ajb 3y ago

I can't find the reference right now, but one example is supposedly aboriginal Australian societies. I read somewhere that one thesis was the because those societies often lived in small groups which might not be genetically viable on their own, and they were widely separated due to the low carrying capacity of the land, when groups encountered each other they would be more interested in, ahem, exchanging genetic material, than fighting. And since they lived that way until recently (in historical terms) there is at least some memory of what happened. But personally I know nothing about Australian aboriginal societies and that might be complete rubbish. In any case of doesn't seem likely to be representative of cultures living in areas that would support a denser population.

throwaway4aday 3y ago
"exchanging genetic material" is also a major motivation for violence. Kidnapping women as a way of obtaining a bride or brides has been practiced throughout history all over the world and is still practiced in some groups today. Living in a state of nature means no laws and the only restriction on your actions is the willingness and ability of others to physically stop you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I wonder if there was a similar phenomena in Australian to North America, where basically all observations were of cultures radically altered and depopulated by disease.
- jgilias 3y ago
  Depopulation by disease started with the arrival of Europeans, right? Apparently Native Americans knew how to do genocide also before European arrival: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre
jgilias 3y ago
And, apparently, no, not really: https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/aborigines/2022/07/truth-telling-and-aboriginal-tribal-warfare/ https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/aborigines/2022/07/truth-tel...

ch4s3 3y ago

You need enough food to feed enough fighting age men in order for the economics of raising to even work. If a band of 50 or so loses more than a few prime age men they might not be able to feed themselves.