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This bothers me even more when it comes to web browsers. (Or should I say the browser?) I grew up in a world where everything was hackable. Chrome (and Firefox

This bothers me even more when it comes to web browsers. (Or should I say the browser?) I grew up in a world where everything was hackable. Chrome (and Firefox, but it really doesn't matter anymore) become less and less modifiable and adaptable. In theory and practice. I think the main reason there is no viable alternative browser is that it has become far too complicated and far to much effort to write and maintain one. But - and here comes the point - even if we could muster the resources to pull one off, we'd never gain enough trust that it is as secure as Chrome to make it even remotely popular. As long as things are as they are, it is a game we're never gonna win.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>we'd never gain enough trust that it is as secure as Chrome to make it even remotely popular. The vast majority of people do not care about security, privacy, etc. at all. Chrome achieved dominion simply because it's better to use than anything else, it also doesn't help that Firefox also Mozilla'd itself into irrelevance.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Chrome achieved dominion because it was pushed heavily by Google abusing their monopoly. If Chrome had been fielded by a small software company (assuming they could have) it would have maybe reached parity with FF but it would have never gotten to the dominant position that it has today. All of those 'download Chrome here' and all of those articles that happen to move to the top of your search results add up to a pretty big competitive advantage.
charcircuit 3y ago
Chromium still seems to be plenty modifiable and adaptable. It's pretty modular and there are plenty of active forks of it: Edge, Brave, Opera, etc.
- herewulf 3y ago
  And those projects are dependent on Google's perpetual goodwill to keep Chromium open and up to date. What if Google one day yanks the rug out from under them?
  - ddalex 3y ago
    What prevents literally anybody from continuing to support Chromium? Has Microsoft ran out of competent engineers?
    - mcny 3y ago
      Microsoft is not and will never be the hero in any story. > What prevents literally anybody from continuing to support Chromium? Has Microsoft ran out of competent engineers? Remember that Microsoft failed at its promise of if we don't match Chrome bug for bug, that is a defect in Edge. They failed and they gave up trying. My personal conspiracy theory is that it costs well over a billion dollars a year, not including marketing dollars or bribery dollars, just to keep Chrome running. I don't think Google will pull the rug on Chromium but then again all bets are off if Google has new overlords or if Google isn't making that USD 200B+ revenue year over year. Things feel permanent probably right before giving up the ghost. I think if Microsoft felt like it could avoid using Chromium with its own stuff, it would have never touched Chromium. tl;Dr I doubt Microsoft will put in the money or energy it takes to maintain Chromium.
      - foota 3y ago
        If chromium were abandoned they wouldn't really have a choice, would they? I guess they could migrate edge to run on top of firefox, but I'm not sure if they'd want to. It's actually a little interesting, why did they choose Chromium in the first place over firefox, when Microsoft and Google are more directly competitors?
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    That applies to any project you fork or build. The team working on it can change licenses or stop development at any time. Considering how many companies depend on working with Chromium there is financial backing for funding development if Google were to go away. It is the browser in the most favorable position for if this were to happen.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  Sure, you can fork it but your fork will never reach the same level of security as the original simply because you cannot afford to put in the same effort as Google does. My point is that these forks are futile because it takes only one major vulnerability - found by Project Zero and publicized with Google's might - to blow you out of business.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Project Zero notifies vendors before disclosing the vulnerability. They would also be able to provide a patch from Google assuming the code hadn't diverged too much since the fork.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>we'd never gain enough trust that it is as secure as Chrome to make it even remotely popular. The vast majority of people do not care about security, privacy, etc. at all. Chrome achieved dominion simply because it's better to use than anything else, it also doesn't help that Firefox also Mozilla'd itself into irrelevance.

jacquesm 3y ago
Chrome achieved dominion because it was pushed heavily by Google abusing their monopoly. If Chrome had been fielded by a small software company (assuming they could have) it would have maybe reached parity with FF but it would have never gotten to the dominant position that it has today. All of those 'download Chrome here' and all of those articles that happen to move to the top of your search results add up to a pretty big competitive advantage.

charcircuit 3y ago

Chromium still seems to be plenty modifiable and adaptable. It's pretty modular and there are plenty of active forks of it: Edge, Brave, Opera, etc.

herewulf 3y ago
And those projects are dependent on Google's perpetual goodwill to keep Chromium open and up to date. What if Google one day yanks the rug out from under them?
- ddalex 3y ago
  What prevents literally anybody from continuing to support Chromium? Has Microsoft ran out of competent engineers?
  - mcny 3y ago
    Microsoft is not and will never be the hero in any story. > What prevents literally anybody from continuing to support Chromium? Has Microsoft ran out of competent engineers? Remember that Microsoft failed at its promise of if we don't match Chrome bug for bug, that is a defect in Edge. They failed and they gave up trying. My personal conspiracy theory is that it costs well over a billion dollars a year, not including marketing dollars or bribery dollars, just to keep Chrome running. I don't think Google will pull the rug on Chromium but then again all bets are off if Google has new overlords or if Google isn't making that USD 200B+ revenue year over year. Things feel permanent probably right before giving up the ghost. I think if Microsoft felt like it could avoid using Chromium with its own stuff, it would have never touched Chromium. tl;Dr I doubt Microsoft will put in the money or energy it takes to maintain Chromium.
    - foota 3y ago
      If chromium were abandoned they wouldn't really have a choice, would they? I guess they could migrate edge to run on top of firefox, but I'm not sure if they'd want to. It's actually a little interesting, why did they choose Chromium in the first place over firefox, when Microsoft and Google are more directly competitors?
- charcircuit 3y ago
  That applies to any project you fork or build. The team working on it can change licenses or stop development at any time. Considering how many companies depend on working with Chromium there is financial backing for funding development if Google were to go away. It is the browser in the most favorable position for if this were to happen.
weinzierl 3y ago
Sure, you can fork it but your fork will never reach the same level of security as the original simply because you cannot afford to put in the same effort as Google does. My point is that these forks are futile because it takes only one major vulnerability - found by Project Zero and publicized with Google's might - to blow you out of business.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Project Zero notifies vendors before disclosing the vulnerability. They would also be able to provide a patch from Google assuming the code hadn't diverged too much since the fork.