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You can hate the politics and foreign policy or various degrees of brutality in all of those countries, but implying Russia and China are as bad as North Korea

You can hate the politics and foreign policy or various degrees of brutality in all of those countries, but implying Russia and China are as bad as North Korea is a little extreme. Doubly so when you imply any positive opinion is just contrarianism, when people on HN have freely traveled or even lived within the first two. You can honestly have a pretty comfy life in the first two countries, especially as an expat. And at least with China, the brutality is hyped up to a point that it's disappointing when you arrive there expecting to be some rebel in some 1984 dystopia and find out people are happy and living a quality of life no different from Europe or the US. In some ways better (cheap cost of living, world-class public transport), and some ways worse (internet and freedom of speech is clearly restricted, but nowhere near the murderous levels of North Korea or even Russia arresting people disapproving of war. Just posts being blocked in 99.9999% of cases, like a heavy-handed version censorship you'd find on reddit but applied almost everywhere). Like a more relaxed version of the UK which arrests people for offensive twitter posts or teaching a dog an offensive salute.

Veraticus 3y ago
I’m gay, so I feel like my quality of life in any of those places would be quite a bit worse than in the US.
- justworkout 3y ago
  In China, you might be disappointed to find that people would just shrug in response to you announcing that. Absolutely nobody cares. You'd get far less reaction than you would in some southern states or small towns in the US.
  - Veraticus 3y ago
    I have a husband and family. Same-sex marriage and adoption is illegal in China, but not anywhere in the US. I can’t speak to public attitudes, but I would assume that they are correspondingly worse in China.
    - justworkout 3y ago
      Socially, nobody would care. Apparently China even grants marriage visas for same-sex couples, although locally it's not really possible to get married yet. But the vast majority of countries still have legal opposition to it so China isn't unique in that sense, although China is making clear changes towards by granting couples various legal benefits similar to typical marriages. It's ahead of some European countries. Throughout east Asia, people really just do not care what others outside their family do and don't get upset about it. But because it's none of their concern, basically nobody bothers to march in the streets for it, and governments are slow to push for social change.
      - Veraticus 3y ago
        This is untrue. See articles like this: https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/4/21/fatherhood-finally-within-reach-some-gay-men-china https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/4/21/fatherhood-fin... > Today in China, gestational surrogacy is illegal for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Adoption is restricted to people in heterosexual marriages. This means gay people can't have kids. China lags significantly behind basically any European country in terms of gay rights and gay families and it’s getting worse: https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/china-bans-gay-couples-from-adopting-children-prohibits-gay-pride-marches-reports-5288066.html/amp https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/china-bans-gay-coupl... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna85528 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna85528 Asserting people don’t care when the government continues to pursue obviously anti-LGBTQ policies is silly.
        justworkout 3y ago
        Italy has is forcing apart LGBT families as we speak but nobody talks about that. > Today in China, gestational surrogacy is illegal for everyone That sounds less like a problem for LGBT people and one for everyone. And that's not unique to China. Japan and Korea don't recognize it. And to bring up Italy again, it's illegal there. China really isn't exceptionally bad in any of these aspects. It's really just at the global standard. The US, mostly due to places like California, New York, and Massachusetts, is paving the way for this. A large portion of the US (red states) is kicking and screaming and trying to find ways to get the courts to strike it down as we speak, or repeatedly passing laws to restrict it that get immediately struck down by courts. And again, Italy is happily pushing the opposite direction. The consensus in east Asia as a whole is "whatever. Who cares" (with Taiwan being the sole exception), which is at least better than that. But Italy will keep topping travel and expat destinations despite being actively more antagonistic to LGBT families.

Veraticus 3y ago

I’m gay, so I feel like my quality of life in any of those places would be quite a bit worse than in the US.

justworkout 3y ago
In China, you might be disappointed to find that people would just shrug in response to you announcing that. Absolutely nobody cares. You'd get far less reaction than you would in some southern states or small towns in the US.
- Veraticus 3y ago
  I have a husband and family. Same-sex marriage and adoption is illegal in China, but not anywhere in the US. I can’t speak to public attitudes, but I would assume that they are correspondingly worse in China.
  - justworkout 3y ago
    Socially, nobody would care. Apparently China even grants marriage visas for same-sex couples, although locally it's not really possible to get married yet. But the vast majority of countries still have legal opposition to it so China isn't unique in that sense, although China is making clear changes towards by granting couples various legal benefits similar to typical marriages. It's ahead of some European countries. Throughout east Asia, people really just do not care what others outside their family do and don't get upset about it. But because it's none of their concern, basically nobody bothers to march in the streets for it, and governments are slow to push for social change.
    - Veraticus 3y ago
      This is untrue. See articles like this: https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/4/21/fatherhood-finally-within-reach-some-gay-men-china https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/4/21/fatherhood-fin... > Today in China, gestational surrogacy is illegal for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Adoption is restricted to people in heterosexual marriages. This means gay people can't have kids. China lags significantly behind basically any European country in terms of gay rights and gay families and it’s getting worse: https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/china-bans-gay-couples-from-adopting-children-prohibits-gay-pride-marches-reports-5288066.html/amp https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/china-bans-gay-coupl... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna85528 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna85528 Asserting people don’t care when the government continues to pursue obviously anti-LGBTQ policies is silly.
      - justworkout 3y ago
        Italy has is forcing apart LGBT families as we speak but nobody talks about that. > Today in China, gestational surrogacy is illegal for everyone That sounds less like a problem for LGBT people and one for everyone. And that's not unique to China. Japan and Korea don't recognize it. And to bring up Italy again, it's illegal there. China really isn't exceptionally bad in any of these aspects. It's really just at the global standard. The US, mostly due to places like California, New York, and Massachusetts, is paving the way for this. A large portion of the US (red states) is kicking and screaming and trying to find ways to get the courts to strike it down as we speak, or repeatedly passing laws to restrict it that get immediately struck down by courts. And again, Italy is happily pushing the opposite direction. The consensus in east Asia as a whole is "whatever. Who cares" (with Taiwan being the sole exception), which is at least better than that. But Italy will keep topping travel and expat destinations despite being actively more antagonistic to LGBT families.