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"Artists spend significant time crafting prompts and finding seeds to generate a desired image with text-to-image models." I wish there was a different descrip

"Artists spend significant time crafting prompts and finding seeds to generate a desired image with text-to-image models." I wish there was a different description of those who generate art via AI than "artists". When ChatGPT writes me a story based on my prompts I'm still not an "author". Sorry, I know it's a tired argument already but it'll never stop bugging me.

PeterStuer 3y ago
First of all being labeled an 'artist' has little relation to the tools used to create 'art'. 'Art' by 'artists' does inlude the Sistene Chapel amf the Matthew Passion, but also trowing a bucket of paint at a canvas, wrapping a bridge, having ice melt and dragging a urinal into a museum. That does not make you an artist whenever you spill ketchup on your shirt, wrap a Chrismas gift or pour yourself a scotch on the rocks. Second, while you can indeed just type a prompt into Midjourney and some images will be generated, there are 'artists' using diffusion models to meticulously craft 'art' using hundreds of itrrations combining dozens of models and loras with inpainting. outpainting, recomposing and fusing, dtawing and more to come to a unique piece of 'art'. Third, didn't we have the same thing before? Are DJ's musicians? Some most definetly are. Creating new music by adapting, restructuring. remixing and extending existing tracks, while others use turntables as a real instrument. Others just put on some records at a wedding. It's about intention and context, and yes, creativity and skill, not about the tools used.
- taopai 3y ago
  Great response. I would also add that art is also "created" when you consume it. When we consume it, we generate some interpretation, feelings or imagery. This is the last step. That's internal, but this processing of art is also art. That explain why some people find something as art and others as BS. As you say it's about intention and context, from the artist point of view and also from the consumer.
- iteygib 3y ago
  "Artist" in the context of image creation means you're the main supplier of the talent. In other words, you painted the picture yourself and spent time developing your talent. I can make a video recording of you making the picture from scratch with your own hand. AI "artist" isn't an artist. It's someone who uses an external product to automate the talent for them by creating an average image based on samples created by artists, of which were curated by individuals with particular tastes. It's why AI art mostly looks the same. It's also the reason a DJ a is called a disc jockey and not a musician. They are labeled differently to show the difference in the generation of the supplied content. You might as well say that someone who Googles "picture of a dog" is an artist as well since they learned the ins and outs of the search engine. A better term for AI Artist would be something that mentions the collage aspect of it.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> I wish there was a different description of those who generate art via AI than "artists" Typically, if you generate art, regardless of the tool or medium or form, you are an artist. There may also be a more specific term for artists working with/in a specific tool, medium, or form, but the general term still applies. Stable Diffusion is a tool used yb a person, not a person.
deleted 3y ago
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lbeltrame 3y ago
While I won't ever call myself an artist, there are people who do not just click and get an image. My workflow involves getting the right prompt out, then manual touch up of the images (sometimes drastically so) using Krita and a Wacom tablet, or composing scenes with 3D mannequins from CLIP STUDIO PAINT and then feeding them to ControlNet (up to several CNs at once), generating and touching up again. I would argue there's a definite creative process here.
iteygib 3y ago
I completely agree with you. I think AI art is a good tool, but referring to the users as "artists" is confusing to actual practice. You aren't creating the content, but rather are dictating it like a patron or client. You are just telling an engine what you hope to see, in the same way someone might tell you what to paint while watching over your shoulder. It's also not a tired argument. You are just posting in a place that is very pro tech and not art-oriented. If you posted this in an art forum you'd get the opposite reaction.
dataangel 3y ago
Artist is still going to be the right word with these kinds of tools because you're still adjusting the result to get the desired look. Even if it were just collage it would still be art.
- iteygib 3y ago
  They didn't make the content, they just adjusted it based on samples from others who made the art by hand.
- tguvot 3y ago
  so, if i retain painter/sculptor/etc to perform a job, and go with him for multiple iteration to get a desired look, will I be artist as well ?
  - tomatotomato31 3y ago
    Either yes or perhaps curator?
  - klik99 3y ago
    It's semantics, but if you consider Jeff Koons to be an artist, then yes. AFAIK he has never (or at least when he was starting) used his own hands to fully create something, from the very beginning he hired people to do it for him. The "Desired Look" can be considered the "artistic" part of art, while the production can be considered the craft. Koons is the most extreme example I can think of, but there are plenty of others who got their start creating stuff themselves and then hired people to do the total of the work. Is a director an artist, when he doesn't write the script, touch the camera, edit the film, or act in the movie?
  - artninja1988 3y ago
    Sure. Why not?
    - tguvot 3y ago
      and if i'll retain programmer to develop software, will after 50 sprints with my feedback i will be called programmer ?
fzzzy 3y ago
I wish there was a different description of those who generate art via Word Processor than "artists". If they aren't impressing upon a cuneiform tablet I am not interested.
artninja1988 3y ago
Do you consider photographers artists? I really don't see why we should be gatekeeping the term either way
- UberFly 3y ago
  More composers than artists.
  - dontupvoteme 3y ago
    More like medicine - Science and an Art. Ironically the photography community already went through this sort of discussion as the Art of the darkroom became the 'art' of photoshop Though the scale is lessened due to the significant barrier of entry for high end photography (a few grand per body and per lens)
minimaxir 3y ago
AI art and its modern tooling ecosystem is at a point now that it unironically takes more effort to generate an intentionally innovative AI image than it is to draw it from scratch. Just look at ComfyUI: https://github.com/comfyanonymous/ComfyUI https://github.com/comfyanonymous/ComfyUI
- spookie 3y ago
  Honestly, that happened to me. Was making some UI elements for a game, and tried to generate some. After a while, I was so tired of getting results that weren't quite what I wanted that I just drew them. It certainly has its place, but the "its taking people's jobs" argument kinda fell apart for me after that moment
- MrScruff 3y ago
  If you find ComfyUI offputting you really wouldn't like the nodegraph based applications we use in VFX.
  - minimaxir 3y ago
    That is a correct inference.
- whywhywhywhy 3y ago
  People honestly overcomplicate it, the variety you can get just out of base SDXL without even using loras or other models and comfy nodes is crazy once you get a feel of it but a lot of people make the mistake of not spending the time on it to figure out how to push it in the direction they want and instead think piling on a bunch of loras and an extra model is the key to getting something different.
- tracerbulletx 3y ago
  It unironically absolutely does not. Source: every visual artist that's spent the last 20 years slowly improving their work.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
flessner 3y ago
This discussion might be heavy on semantics, but I don't think you are wrong for bringing this up. AI can be used as a tool to empower authors and artists to create more and/or better works, but it can also be used by a lazy student to finish their 2 page writing assignment in seconds. The only thing AI will clearly do over the next few years is raise the bar. Beginner art or copywriting is already outclassed and assignments will assume access to AI tools, similarly how many assume internet access nowadays. Nevertheless, I truly believe that there will always be space for human art... just look at chess, with engines far better than humans, what are the tournaments about? the players.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

PeterStuer 3y ago

First of all being labeled an 'artist' has little relation to the tools used to create 'art'. 'Art' by 'artists' does inlude the Sistene Chapel amf the Matthew Passion, but also trowing a bucket of paint at a canvas, wrapping a bridge, having ice melt and dragging a urinal into a museum. That does not make you an artist whenever you spill ketchup on your shirt, wrap a Chrismas gift or pour yourself a scotch on the rocks. Second, while you can indeed just type a prompt into Midjourney and some images will be generated, there are 'artists' using diffusion models to meticulously craft 'art' using hundreds of itrrations combining dozens of models and loras with inpainting. outpainting, recomposing and fusing, dtawing and more to come to a unique piece of 'art'. Third, didn't we have the same thing before? Are DJ's musicians? Some most definetly are. Creating new music by adapting, restructuring. remixing and extending existing tracks, while others use turntables as a real instrument. Others just put on some records at a wedding. It's about intention and context, and yes, creativity and skill, not about the tools used.

taopai 3y ago
Great response. I would also add that art is also "created" when you consume it. When we consume it, we generate some interpretation, feelings or imagery. This is the last step. That's internal, but this processing of art is also art. That explain why some people find something as art and others as BS. As you say it's about intention and context, from the artist point of view and also from the consumer.
iteygib 3y ago
"Artist" in the context of image creation means you're the main supplier of the talent. In other words, you painted the picture yourself and spent time developing your talent. I can make a video recording of you making the picture from scratch with your own hand. AI "artist" isn't an artist. It's someone who uses an external product to automate the talent for them by creating an average image based on samples created by artists, of which were curated by individuals with particular tastes. It's why AI art mostly looks the same. It's also the reason a DJ a is called a disc jockey and not a musician. They are labeled differently to show the difference in the generation of the supplied content. You might as well say that someone who Googles "picture of a dog" is an artist as well since they learned the ins and outs of the search engine. A better term for AI Artist would be something that mentions the collage aspect of it.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> I wish there was a different description of those who generate art via AI than "artists" Typically, if you generate art, regardless of the tool or medium or form, you are an artist. There may also be a more specific term for artists working with/in a specific tool, medium, or form, but the general term still applies. Stable Diffusion is a tool used yb a person, not a person.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lbeltrame 3y ago

While I won't ever call myself an artist, there are people who do not just click and get an image. My workflow involves getting the right prompt out, then manual touch up of the images (sometimes drastically so) using Krita and a Wacom tablet, or composing scenes with 3D mannequins from CLIP STUDIO PAINT and then feeding them to ControlNet (up to several CNs at once), generating and touching up again. I would argue there's a definite creative process here.

iteygib 3y ago

I completely agree with you. I think AI art is a good tool, but referring to the users as "artists" is confusing to actual practice. You aren't creating the content, but rather are dictating it like a patron or client. You are just telling an engine what you hope to see, in the same way someone might tell you what to paint while watching over your shoulder. It's also not a tired argument. You are just posting in a place that is very pro tech and not art-oriented. If you posted this in an art forum you'd get the opposite reaction.

dataangel 3y ago

Artist is still going to be the right word with these kinds of tools because you're still adjusting the result to get the desired look. Even if it were just collage it would still be art.

iteygib 3y ago
They didn't make the content, they just adjusted it based on samples from others who made the art by hand.
tguvot 3y ago
so, if i retain painter/sculptor/etc to perform a job, and go with him for multiple iteration to get a desired look, will I be artist as well ?
- tomatotomato31 3y ago
  Either yes or perhaps curator?
- klik99 3y ago
  It's semantics, but if you consider Jeff Koons to be an artist, then yes. AFAIK he has never (or at least when he was starting) used his own hands to fully create something, from the very beginning he hired people to do it for him. The "Desired Look" can be considered the "artistic" part of art, while the production can be considered the craft. Koons is the most extreme example I can think of, but there are plenty of others who got their start creating stuff themselves and then hired people to do the total of the work. Is a director an artist, when he doesn't write the script, touch the camera, edit the film, or act in the movie?
- artninja1988 3y ago
  Sure. Why not?
  - tguvot 3y ago
    and if i'll retain programmer to develop software, will after 50 sprints with my feedback i will be called programmer ?

fzzzy 3y ago

I wish there was a different description of those who generate art via Word Processor than "artists". If they aren't impressing upon a cuneiform tablet I am not interested.

artninja1988 3y ago

Do you consider photographers artists? I really don't see why we should be gatekeeping the term either way

UberFly 3y ago
More composers than artists.
- dontupvoteme 3y ago
  More like medicine - Science and an Art. Ironically the photography community already went through this sort of discussion as the Art of the darkroom became the 'art' of photoshop Though the scale is lessened due to the significant barrier of entry for high end photography (a few grand per body and per lens)

minimaxir 3y ago

AI art and its modern tooling ecosystem is at a point now that it unironically takes more effort to generate an intentionally innovative AI image than it is to draw it from scratch. Just look at ComfyUI: https://github.com/comfyanonymous/ComfyUI https://github.com/comfyanonymous/ComfyUI

spookie 3y ago
Honestly, that happened to me. Was making some UI elements for a game, and tried to generate some. After a while, I was so tired of getting results that weren't quite what I wanted that I just drew them. It certainly has its place, but the "its taking people's jobs" argument kinda fell apart for me after that moment
MrScruff 3y ago
If you find ComfyUI offputting you really wouldn't like the nodegraph based applications we use in VFX.
- minimaxir 3y ago
  That is a correct inference.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
People honestly overcomplicate it, the variety you can get just out of base SDXL without even using loras or other models and comfy nodes is crazy once you get a feel of it but a lot of people make the mistake of not spending the time on it to figure out how to push it in the direction they want and instead think piling on a bunch of loras and an extra model is the key to getting something different.
tracerbulletx 3y ago
It unironically absolutely does not. Source: every visual artist that's spent the last 20 years slowly improving their work.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago

flessner 3y ago

This discussion might be heavy on semantics, but I don't think you are wrong for bringing this up. AI can be used as a tool to empower authors and artists to create more and/or better works, but it can also be used by a lazy student to finish their 2 page writing assignment in seconds. The only thing AI will clearly do over the next few years is raise the bar. Beginner art or copywriting is already outclassed and assignments will assume access to AI tools, similarly how many assume internet access nowadays. Nevertheless, I truly believe that there will always be space for human art... just look at chess, with engines far better than humans, what are the tournaments about? the players.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]