6 ms·

Should Windows have a default CLI editor?

27 points by 9front 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago
Edlin, of course.
- anthk 3y ago
  Or an mcedit clone, as mcedit it's a merge between DOS edit design and the midnight commander tools.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I guess you didn't got the joke with edlin. :)
- FerretFred 3y ago
  Upvote for edlin! I didn't even need 1Mb of memory to run that. Incidentally, iPadOS autocorrects "edlin" to "delinquent".
extraduder_ire 3y ago
Does anyone know why they removed "edit" from 64 bit versions of windows? I assume there's a newoldthing about it.
- Kwpolska 3y ago
  It is the MS-DOS Editor, so it's probably 16-bit, so it doesn't run on 64-bit Windows.
deafpolygon 3y ago
I would love a modern take. I don't want to see vim or emacs recreated (they exist already).
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  A command line version of VSCode would be interesting.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  >> I don't want to see vim or emacs recreated (they exist already). Why would they need to be recreated? Windows ports of vim and emacs exist and they would be excellent choices along with a simple editor like nano. I agree with those in the thread that they should just include vim, emacs, and nano. They are mature, have excellent features and would target all the major groups of users who use text editors. Creating an entirely new text editor seems silly when there are so many good choices with full ecosystems and user communities.
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    > Why would they need to be recreated? Windows ports of vim and emacs exist I think you are missing the point here. It's not about litterally rewriting them, but about copying their design. It'd be nice to see a new advanced text editor written using what we've learned over the last 40 years and about usability, discoverability, etc.
    - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
      >> I think you are missing the point here. No, the point is to select one or more existing text editors to add to Windows: "The goal would be to install the selected editor(s) by default such that their commands work out-of-the-box. Example editors include but are not limited to: • Edit • Pico • Nano • Vim • Emacs • etc. Installing one or more of these editors by default will offer immediate CLI text editor capabilities on all Windows machines, preventing the need for additional installs or workarounds when operating on local machines, remote connections, or Windows containers." Microsoft is not trying to create a new text editor. If anyone wants to write their own new advanced text editor or whatever, they can, but that is not what the GitHub issue is about.
- jayflux 3y ago
majkinetor 3y ago
I guess using winget to install neovim, micro or helix isn't that problematic.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  "There are plenty of offline scenarios where this would be incredibly useful. For disconnected environments, etc. There are some environments that will never connect to winget." Source: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/discussions/16440#discussioncomment-7795366 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/discussions/16440#disc...
cxr 3y ago
The author is confused about what CLI means. None of the programs listed are command-line editors. Ed and sed are examples of command-line editors. These are not. (Vim and Emacs have command lines within them, but so does VSCode, for that matter.)
- ivanjermakov 3y ago
  Vast majority of users (especially on Windows) don't understand the difference between console, terminal, shell, and command line. So this thread treats CLI as TUI.
  - dataflow 3y ago
    > Vast majority of users (especially on Windows) don't understand the difference between console, terminal What is the difference between these on Windows?
    - ivanjermakov 3y ago
      I think in modern times these two can be used interchangeably, even in Linux. I listed it because it adds to the terminology confusion.
      - rewmie 3y ago
        [dead]
      - hulitu 3y ago
        No, they cannot. Your tty4 or xterm underestand different commands than your shell.
        appplication 3y ago
        Perhaps there is a more ideal world in which these converge because I cannot for the life of me understand why we need all of these concurrently. Tangential, tty is also a term that can and should be left in the past.
bitwize 3y ago
Bring back EDLIN!
notnmeyer 3y ago
that discussion is wild... just install a few of the most popular editors and be done with it. default to whatever the smallest, simplest one is—nano or similar? support setting $EDITOR or whatever the fuck the Windows equivalent should be and you're done.
ianai 3y ago
It’d be much more impactful if critical OS configuration was done either via text files (ala *nix) or cli. Either would need to be feature complete and discoverable/documented very well.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Everything is available via CLI for ages, on the Windows NT linage. VBScript, JScript and nowadays Poweshell.
  - hju22_-3 3y ago
    Try setting Group Policy objects through CLI without some serious workarounds and without using that one Microsoft local GPO binary that I don't remember the name of but isn't supported.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/grouppolicy/?view=windowsserver2022-ps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/grouppol...
      - hju22_-3 3y ago
        Show me how to set an arbitrary, already existing, GPO's value without having to manually toggle it first, back that up, and use that backup to import the change.
  - yonatan8070 3y ago
    I've needed to automate the addition of a cellular APN on Windows, as far as I know it's not possible to do without the Windows settings app
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/technologies/netsh/netsh-mbn https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/...
Meph504 3y ago
I'd be happy to see Edit come back, but honestly I think MS wants people doing as little commandline as possible. In fact, there newest tactic is to hide configuration changes they don't want users to mess with in commandline only powershell options that are typically poorly documented, and have odd syntax. maybe isn't malicious, but it feels like it.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Not at all, that is Microsoft appealing to the UNIX culture, that everything should be headless on a server. Hence Windows Nano Server, and everything configuration setting being available via scripting. I thought HN would appreciate that.
  - anthk 3y ago
    More than scripts, an hybrid web/scripting approach. You set up the settings in a web panel, and then you should be able to export the cfg/scripts to a zip file to be scripted/applied afterwards.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Like IIS used to have in the old days, ActiveX/ASP managed. Nowadays the new Windows Admin Center, https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/manage/windows-admin-center/understand/what-is https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/manage/wind...
  - bonton89 3y ago
    I personally have little interest in Windows servers these days. I'm more interested in automating painful settings and actions on my remaining Windows VMs that I use for some desktop applications or maintain just in case I need one in a pinch. One task I wanted to do was have my Windows VM boot in the night and install all updates before shutting down and creating a snapshot. Windows has a pretty jank update system but I was kind of shocked there is no command line way built into windows to trigger "run all the updates now". Despite their obsession with preventing people turning updates off and rebooting against user wishes they didn't build in a way to actually just run them on a controlled schedule. I ended up needing to install a 3rd party powershell package some one made to get this functionality which is ridiculous and arguably somewhat of a security risk.

27 points by 9front 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago

Edlin, of course.

anthk 3y ago
Or an mcedit clone, as mcedit it's a merge between DOS edit design and the midnight commander tools.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I guess you didn't got the joke with edlin. :)
FerretFred 3y ago
Upvote for edlin! I didn't even need 1Mb of memory to run that. Incidentally, iPadOS autocorrects "edlin" to "delinquent".

extraduder_ire 3y ago

Does anyone know why they removed "edit" from 64 bit versions of windows? I assume there's a newoldthing about it.

Kwpolska 3y ago
It is the MS-DOS Editor, so it's probably 16-bit, so it doesn't run on 64-bit Windows.

deafpolygon 3y ago

I would love a modern take. I don't want to see vim or emacs recreated (they exist already).

tonyedgecombe 3y ago
A command line version of VSCode would be interesting.
thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> I don't want to see vim or emacs recreated (they exist already). Why would they need to be recreated? Windows ports of vim and emacs exist and they would be excellent choices along with a simple editor like nano. I agree with those in the thread that they should just include vim, emacs, and nano. They are mature, have excellent features and would target all the major groups of users who use text editors. Creating an entirely new text editor seems silly when there are so many good choices with full ecosystems and user communities.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  > Why would they need to be recreated? Windows ports of vim and emacs exist I think you are missing the point here. It's not about litterally rewriting them, but about copying their design. It'd be nice to see a new advanced text editor written using what we've learned over the last 40 years and about usability, discoverability, etc.
  - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
    >> I think you are missing the point here. No, the point is to select one or more existing text editors to add to Windows: "The goal would be to install the selected editor(s) by default such that their commands work out-of-the-box. Example editors include but are not limited to: • Edit • Pico • Nano • Vim • Emacs • etc. Installing one or more of these editors by default will offer immediate CLI text editor capabilities on all Windows machines, preventing the need for additional installs or workarounds when operating on local machines, remote connections, or Windows containers." Microsoft is not trying to create a new text editor. If anyone wants to write their own new advanced text editor or whatever, they can, but that is not what the GitHub issue is about.
jayflux 3y ago

majkinetor 3y ago

I guess using winget to install neovim, micro or helix isn't that problematic.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
"There are plenty of offline scenarios where this would be incredibly useful. For disconnected environments, etc. There are some environments that will never connect to winget." Source: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/discussions/16440#discussioncomment-7795366 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/discussions/16440#disc...

cxr 3y ago

The author is confused about what CLI means. None of the programs listed are command-line editors. Ed and sed are examples of command-line editors. These are not. (Vim and Emacs have command lines within them, but so does VSCode, for that matter.)

ivanjermakov 3y ago
Vast majority of users (especially on Windows) don't understand the difference between console, terminal, shell, and command line. So this thread treats CLI as TUI.
- dataflow 3y ago
  > Vast majority of users (especially on Windows) don't understand the difference between console, terminal What is the difference between these on Windows?
  - ivanjermakov 3y ago
    I think in modern times these two can be used interchangeably, even in Linux. I listed it because it adds to the terminology confusion.
    - rewmie 3y ago
      [dead]
    - hulitu 3y ago
      No, they cannot. Your tty4 or xterm underestand different commands than your shell.
      - appplication 3y ago
        Perhaps there is a more ideal world in which these converge because I cannot for the life of me understand why we need all of these concurrently. Tangential, tty is also a term that can and should be left in the past.

bitwize 3y ago

Bring back EDLIN!

notnmeyer 3y ago

that discussion is wild... just install a few of the most popular editors and be done with it. default to whatever the smallest, simplest one is—nano or similar? support setting $EDITOR or whatever the fuck the Windows equivalent should be and you're done.

ianai 3y ago

It’d be much more impactful if critical OS configuration was done either via text files (ala *nix) or cli. Either would need to be feature complete and discoverable/documented very well.

pjmlp 3y ago
Everything is available via CLI for ages, on the Windows NT linage. VBScript, JScript and nowadays Poweshell.
- hju22_-3 3y ago
  Try setting Group Policy objects through CLI without some serious workarounds and without using that one Microsoft local GPO binary that I don't remember the name of but isn't supported.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/grouppolicy/?view=windowsserver2022-ps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/grouppol...
    - hju22_-3 3y ago
      Show me how to set an arbitrary, already existing, GPO's value without having to manually toggle it first, back that up, and use that backup to import the change.
- yonatan8070 3y ago
  I've needed to automate the addition of a cellular APN on Windows, as far as I know it's not possible to do without the Windows settings app
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/technologies/netsh/netsh-mbn https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/...

Meph504 3y ago

I'd be happy to see Edit come back, but honestly I think MS wants people doing as little commandline as possible. In fact, there newest tactic is to hide configuration changes they don't want users to mess with in commandline only powershell options that are typically poorly documented, and have odd syntax. maybe isn't malicious, but it feels like it.

pjmlp 3y ago
Not at all, that is Microsoft appealing to the UNIX culture, that everything should be headless on a server. Hence Windows Nano Server, and everything configuration setting being available via scripting. I thought HN would appreciate that.
- anthk 3y ago
  More than scripts, an hybrid web/scripting approach. You set up the settings in a web panel, and then you should be able to export the cfg/scripts to a zip file to be scripted/applied afterwards.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Like IIS used to have in the old days, ActiveX/ASP managed. Nowadays the new Windows Admin Center, https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/manage/windows-admin-center/understand/what-is https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/manage/wind...
- bonton89 3y ago
  I personally have little interest in Windows servers these days. I'm more interested in automating painful settings and actions on my remaining Windows VMs that I use for some desktop applications or maintain just in case I need one in a pinch. One task I wanted to do was have my Windows VM boot in the night and install all updates before shutting down and creating a snapshot. Windows has a pretty jank update system but I was kind of shocked there is no command line way built into windows to trigger "run all the updates now". Despite their obsession with preventing people turning updates off and rebooting against user wishes they didn't build in a way to actually just run them on a controlled schedule. I ended up needing to install a 3rd party powershell package some one made to get this functionality which is ridiculous and arguably somewhat of a security risk.