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> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engi

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are not going to ban natural stone countertops, I don't get why the industry was not allowed to pursue low-silica engineered stone that met or exceeded real stone.

ezzaf 3y ago
Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-concerns-in-engineered-stone-alternatives/103185450 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-co...
- legitster 3y ago
  From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products despite it being safer. And that's probably because it's easier to cut in the field so people do it more often.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Natural stone are expensive and a luxury items. They are not the alternative to engineered stone really. Engineered stone are bought by middle-class, and thus in much higher number. The alternative being usually plain wood.
    - sellmesoap 3y ago
      While natural stone is more expensive, it also requires sealer (wax/polymer + VOCs) is more prone to cracking or breaking during transport or use (put a hot pan on the counter and find out) and we do cut it on site with a angle grinder when nessisary. Engineered stone generates a ton of microplastics when being fabricated, and it wouldn't surprise me if it had endocrine disrupting chemicals. I'm a cranky old web dev, looking for my next dev/ops job, email in bio :)
  - ezzaf 3y ago
    Worse in one specific regard, yes. And they agree with you in their conclusion, saying dust during processing is likely a factor. You can see the full study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 > In conclusion, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of the physico-chemical characteristics of dusts generated from a wide range of resin-based engineered stones (of high- and reduced-silica contents) and the first to assess how these characteristics relate to the lung cell response, at a scale large enough to potentially identify components of these materials that could be linked to the severity of disease among ES workers. We showed that exposure to high levels of RCS dust during ES processing is likely contributing to disease severity in this occupational group, however, other inorganic components of ES dust, in particular Co and Al, may also be strong contributors. Furthermore, some of the highest inflammatory responses recorded were observed in non-engineered stones, further supporting the view that components other than crystalline silica may be contributing to the pathogenesis of severe silicosis. The outcomes of this study have important implications for future regulation of ES products as they challenge the common view that reducing the crystalline silica alone will eliminate disease risk. The key take-away I get from that is that it's not silica specifically, but something else about engineered stone that is making it so unsafe to work with. And that's why they are banning the whole product class.
    - xyzzy123 3y ago
      Do you know if they ruled out the resins used to bind stuff together? In theory perfectly cured resins are supposed to be non-toxic (eg food safe) but you can get sensitised to specific mixes or accelerants and sometimes the curing isn't perfect... EDIT: It looks like they considered it but didn't come to any firm conclusions, further research needed etc.
      - acdha 3y ago
        The theory I’ve heard would make a lot of sense: the resin coating prevents natural breakdown, similar to how asbestos victims never recover while small glass fragments are eventually removed. I hope that some researcher figures this out because I’d bet it’ll be applicable to more than just this product.
  - hattmall 3y ago
    Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?
    - rstuart4133 3y ago
      It's been said elsewhere here, but the ban isn't because of manufacturing. The stuff can and generally is handled very safely during manufacturing, and they appear confident they can sue / jail the odd cowboy shop that doesn't comply. What they aren't confident is their ability to force the installers handle it safely. When it gets to the site there is often a corner to be shaved, or a unexpected hole needed. It only takes slightly more effort to use a wet saw, but to contractors time is money and it's their health they are putting as risk - so it's OK, right? The site is typically a new house or small business. Policing those sites effectively is prohibitively costly, suing for the consequences after they happen doesn't work because the disease takes years to manifest so they've killed a few people by the time it happens. So in typical Australian fashion they've decided people making decisions in their 20's they maim or kill them in their 30's is not OK (that is what's happening), so they take what seems drastic action. It's entirely in keeping with the Australian way. We were the first insist on plain paper packaging for cigarettes for example, ditto on seat belts, we enforce total alcohol bans in towns where alcohol related violence is deemed too high (typically we see a 60% drop in alcohol related crime when that happens).
    - legitster 3y ago
      The exposure to silica comes from cutting and grinding - and there is probably more exposure to cutting and grinding from natural stone (first at the quarry and second in production). I think the important distinction is that with natural stone, much more is cut to fit from the factory (which is easier to handle dust) vs cut on site.
      - newaccount74 3y ago
        Yeah, I'm pretty sure that nobody tries to cut granite on site with an angle grinder. It's so difficult because the material is so hard. Granite countertops are typically cut off-site with a waterjet, which creates zero dust.
  - robocat 3y ago
    Weirdly enough, The article hints that the legislation won't ban natural stone. What alternatives are there to engineered stone? * Natural stone
    - katbyte 3y ago
      It’s not weird. Natural stone has been used forever and it was only after engineered stone entered the market they started to see a sharp rise in silicosis cases. Why ban a product that wasn’t causing the problem?
      - kortilla 3y ago
        What would the base rate of silicosis be if natural stone work was banned too?
        rbanffy 3y ago
        Fun how capitalism makes us think of what would be “acceptable deaths” so an industry could continue to generate profits.
      - valdiorn 3y ago
        Engineered stone has been around for 60 years by now. Something tells me they weren't tracking silicosis cases as diligently back in the 1960s as they are today. Most likely, cases are up because they are better diagnosed and tracked today than before engineered stone was a thing. I don't understand how you could possibly draw this conclusion based on the evidence we have.
        katbyte 3y ago
        >Engineered stone, a durable and affordable alternative to natural materials like granite and marble, exploded in popularity in Australia throughout the 2000s. >However doctors began sounding the alarm after noticing a surge in stonemasons developing silicosis, a long-term and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by inhaling unsafe levels of silica dust. This is all in the last couple decades where doctors were well aware of and tracking cases. It’s very well documented and there’s no debate about cases increasing. The only debate is what exact is it about ES that makes it so much more deadly then natural stone. It is very much linked to the use of ES not “better tracking of cases” You clearly did absolutely no research or even read the linked article and are responding with you feelings on the matter.
cannedbeets 3y ago
The engineered stone is almost entirely silica. > Hoy said that long before stonecutters started struggling to breathe, the sheer amount of silica in many kinds of engineered stone — upwards of 90% — should have made it obvious that the material was risky to cut and grind, especially in workplaces without sophisticated measures to control dust.(1) > But scientists and regulators have grown concerned about whether recommended strategies such as wet cutting, proper ventilation and wearing respirator masks can do enough to protect workers from dust so high in silica. Cal/OSHA officials have generally described silicosis as preventable, but also caution that with 93% silica(2) content, “safe use of engineered stone may not be possible” even with proper workplace practices.(1) (1) https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-19/why-california-workers-died-of-a-preventable-disease-silicosis https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-19/why-cali... 2. https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA3768.pdf https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA37...
dylan604 3y ago
if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.
- buryat 3y ago
  it does sound like mining companies protecting their business
- Incipient 3y ago
  We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US. Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.
  - some_random 3y ago
    It's so funny to me how many non-americans just assume their country is perfect because they apparently don't pay attention to their local news. Or maybe it's just nationalism, hard to say.
  - PickledHotdog 3y ago
    There's a substantial amount of lobbying, but the reporting requirements on it are laughably low. Agree it's not at the level of the US, though. The member for Kooyong was working to establish a bill about it. At the moment lobbyists have unfettered access to parliament house.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Lobbying and bribery are not the same at all. Equivocating them severely downplays the seriousness of bribery. Lobbying means someone is trying to influence the government through things as simple as advertising campaigns. Those exist in AU.
    - shkkmo 3y ago
      Advertising is PR, not lobbying. Lobbying often involves implicit or explicit offers of campaign funding, PAC support/opposition, and gifts that skirt the edge of what is legally bribery.
dboreham 3y ago
Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material? Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.
- landswipe 3y ago
  I think it has more to do with the explosion of use in the market, it's everywhere now (from McMansions to cheap apartments). It is was just cheap/expensive enough to replace laminated MDF benchtops. I suggest people look at the actual numbers -> https://lungfoundation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NSPS-NAP-Fifth-Full-Draft-Copy-for-Public-Consultation.pdf https://lungfoundation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NSP... Every one of them over zero is bad, but I was surprised how small the sample of active cases actually are. It would have been better to show the change year on year though. I was surprised that the sample rate was so few, that is active cases.
- gruez 3y ago
  That just seems like a policy that punishes the poor. It's like banning commercial flights for greenhouse gas reasons but letting private jets fly.
  - xxs 3y ago
    >poor it's a luxury product, far from the cheapest countertop options.
- wisty 3y ago
  If you're only paying a small amount for the materials, most people will be a lot more price sensitive on installation, so there's a race to the bottom.
  - newaccount74 3y ago
    Also, if the material is expensive, it pays off to measure exactly and order the material cut to the correct dimensions rather than just cut it on site, because if you slip with the angle grinder your mistake costs 2000€.
vilhelm_s 3y ago
Apparently the spike in cases in due to engineered stone. The FAQ gives various reasons why this may be the case, e.g. the generated particle size is different, and also it is easier to cut than natural stone so it may be processed by less skilled workers. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/crystalline-silica-and-silicosis/questions-and-answers-about-impact-analysis-and-consultation https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/cr...
Nursie 3y ago
> I don't get why the industry was not allowed to pursue low-silica engineered stone From what I can tell, the law itself allows for products under 1% silica. Now where did I read that ... "According to the ministers’ communique, exceptions will be introduced for the removal, repair, minor modification or disposal of engineered stone installed before 1 July 2024, as well as for products with trace levels of silica under 1%." https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/engineered-stone-bench-top-ban-confirmed-begin-2024-when https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/engin... Yes, that is a massively higher hurdle than natural stone has to meet.

ezzaf 3y ago

Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-concerns-in-engineered-stone-alternatives/103185450 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-co...

legitster 3y ago
From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products despite it being safer. And that's probably because it's easier to cut in the field so people do it more often.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  Natural stone are expensive and a luxury items. They are not the alternative to engineered stone really. Engineered stone are bought by middle-class, and thus in much higher number. The alternative being usually plain wood.
  - sellmesoap 3y ago
    While natural stone is more expensive, it also requires sealer (wax/polymer + VOCs) is more prone to cracking or breaking during transport or use (put a hot pan on the counter and find out) and we do cut it on site with a angle grinder when nessisary. Engineered stone generates a ton of microplastics when being fabricated, and it wouldn't surprise me if it had endocrine disrupting chemicals. I'm a cranky old web dev, looking for my next dev/ops job, email in bio :)
- ezzaf 3y ago
  Worse in one specific regard, yes. And they agree with you in their conclusion, saying dust during processing is likely a factor. You can see the full study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 > In conclusion, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of the physico-chemical characteristics of dusts generated from a wide range of resin-based engineered stones (of high- and reduced-silica contents) and the first to assess how these characteristics relate to the lung cell response, at a scale large enough to potentially identify components of these materials that could be linked to the severity of disease among ES workers. We showed that exposure to high levels of RCS dust during ES processing is likely contributing to disease severity in this occupational group, however, other inorganic components of ES dust, in particular Co and Al, may also be strong contributors. Furthermore, some of the highest inflammatory responses recorded were observed in non-engineered stones, further supporting the view that components other than crystalline silica may be contributing to the pathogenesis of severe silicosis. The outcomes of this study have important implications for future regulation of ES products as they challenge the common view that reducing the crystalline silica alone will eliminate disease risk. The key take-away I get from that is that it's not silica specifically, but something else about engineered stone that is making it so unsafe to work with. And that's why they are banning the whole product class.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    Do you know if they ruled out the resins used to bind stuff together? In theory perfectly cured resins are supposed to be non-toxic (eg food safe) but you can get sensitised to specific mixes or accelerants and sometimes the curing isn't perfect... EDIT: It looks like they considered it but didn't come to any firm conclusions, further research needed etc.
    - acdha 3y ago
      The theory I’ve heard would make a lot of sense: the resin coating prevents natural breakdown, similar to how asbestos victims never recover while small glass fragments are eventually removed. I hope that some researcher figures this out because I’d bet it’ll be applicable to more than just this product.
- hattmall 3y ago
  Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?
  - rstuart4133 3y ago
    It's been said elsewhere here, but the ban isn't because of manufacturing. The stuff can and generally is handled very safely during manufacturing, and they appear confident they can sue / jail the odd cowboy shop that doesn't comply. What they aren't confident is their ability to force the installers handle it safely. When it gets to the site there is often a corner to be shaved, or a unexpected hole needed. It only takes slightly more effort to use a wet saw, but to contractors time is money and it's their health they are putting as risk - so it's OK, right? The site is typically a new house or small business. Policing those sites effectively is prohibitively costly, suing for the consequences after they happen doesn't work because the disease takes years to manifest so they've killed a few people by the time it happens. So in typical Australian fashion they've decided people making decisions in their 20's they maim or kill them in their 30's is not OK (that is what's happening), so they take what seems drastic action. It's entirely in keeping with the Australian way. We were the first insist on plain paper packaging for cigarettes for example, ditto on seat belts, we enforce total alcohol bans in towns where alcohol related violence is deemed too high (typically we see a 60% drop in alcohol related crime when that happens).
  - legitster 3y ago
    The exposure to silica comes from cutting and grinding - and there is probably more exposure to cutting and grinding from natural stone (first at the quarry and second in production). I think the important distinction is that with natural stone, much more is cut to fit from the factory (which is easier to handle dust) vs cut on site.
    - newaccount74 3y ago
      Yeah, I'm pretty sure that nobody tries to cut granite on site with an angle grinder. It's so difficult because the material is so hard. Granite countertops are typically cut off-site with a waterjet, which creates zero dust.
- robocat 3y ago
  Weirdly enough, The article hints that the legislation won't ban natural stone. What alternatives are there to engineered stone? * Natural stone
  - katbyte 3y ago
    It’s not weird. Natural stone has been used forever and it was only after engineered stone entered the market they started to see a sharp rise in silicosis cases. Why ban a product that wasn’t causing the problem?
    - kortilla 3y ago
      What would the base rate of silicosis be if natural stone work was banned too?
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        Fun how capitalism makes us think of what would be “acceptable deaths” so an industry could continue to generate profits.
    - valdiorn 3y ago
      Engineered stone has been around for 60 years by now. Something tells me they weren't tracking silicosis cases as diligently back in the 1960s as they are today. Most likely, cases are up because they are better diagnosed and tracked today than before engineered stone was a thing. I don't understand how you could possibly draw this conclusion based on the evidence we have.
      - katbyte 3y ago
        >Engineered stone, a durable and affordable alternative to natural materials like granite and marble, exploded in popularity in Australia throughout the 2000s. >However doctors began sounding the alarm after noticing a surge in stonemasons developing silicosis, a long-term and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by inhaling unsafe levels of silica dust. This is all in the last couple decades where doctors were well aware of and tracking cases. It’s very well documented and there’s no debate about cases increasing. The only debate is what exact is it about ES that makes it so much more deadly then natural stone. It is very much linked to the use of ES not “better tracking of cases” You clearly did absolutely no research or even read the linked article and are responding with you feelings on the matter.

cannedbeets 3y ago

The engineered stone is almost entirely silica. > Hoy said that long before stonecutters started struggling to breathe, the sheer amount of silica in many kinds of engineered stone — upwards of 90% — should have made it obvious that the material was risky to cut and grind, especially in workplaces without sophisticated measures to control dust.(1) > But scientists and regulators have grown concerned about whether recommended strategies such as wet cutting, proper ventilation and wearing respirator masks can do enough to protect workers from dust so high in silica. Cal/OSHA officials have generally described silicosis as preventable, but also caution that with 93% silica(2) content, “safe use of engineered stone may not be possible” even with proper workplace practices.(1) (1) https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-19/why-california-workers-died-of-a-preventable-disease-silicosis https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-19/why-cali... 2. https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA3768.pdf https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA37...

dylan604 3y ago

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

buryat 3y ago
it does sound like mining companies protecting their business
Incipient 3y ago
We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US. Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.
- some_random 3y ago
  It's so funny to me how many non-americans just assume their country is perfect because they apparently don't pay attention to their local news. Or maybe it's just nationalism, hard to say.
- PickledHotdog 3y ago
  There's a substantial amount of lobbying, but the reporting requirements on it are laughably low. Agree it's not at the level of the US, though. The member for Kooyong was working to establish a bill about it. At the moment lobbyists have unfettered access to parliament house.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Lobbying and bribery are not the same at all. Equivocating them severely downplays the seriousness of bribery. Lobbying means someone is trying to influence the government through things as simple as advertising campaigns. Those exist in AU.
  - shkkmo 3y ago
    Advertising is PR, not lobbying. Lobbying often involves implicit or explicit offers of campaign funding, PAC support/opposition, and gifts that skirt the edge of what is legally bribery.

dboreham 3y ago

Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material? Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.

landswipe 3y ago
I think it has more to do with the explosion of use in the market, it's everywhere now (from McMansions to cheap apartments). It is was just cheap/expensive enough to replace laminated MDF benchtops. I suggest people look at the actual numbers -> https://lungfoundation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NSPS-NAP-Fifth-Full-Draft-Copy-for-Public-Consultation.pdf https://lungfoundation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NSP... Every one of them over zero is bad, but I was surprised how small the sample of active cases actually are. It would have been better to show the change year on year though. I was surprised that the sample rate was so few, that is active cases.
gruez 3y ago
That just seems like a policy that punishes the poor. It's like banning commercial flights for greenhouse gas reasons but letting private jets fly.
- xxs 3y ago
  >poor it's a luxury product, far from the cheapest countertop options.
wisty 3y ago
If you're only paying a small amount for the materials, most people will be a lot more price sensitive on installation, so there's a race to the bottom.
- newaccount74 3y ago
  Also, if the material is expensive, it pays off to measure exactly and order the material cut to the correct dimensions rather than just cut it on site, because if you slip with the angle grinder your mistake costs 2000€.

vilhelm_s 3y ago

Apparently the spike in cases in due to engineered stone. The FAQ gives various reasons why this may be the case, e.g. the generated particle size is different, and also it is easier to cut than natural stone so it may be processed by less skilled workers. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/crystalline-silica-and-silicosis/questions-and-answers-about-impact-analysis-and-consultation https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/cr...

Nursie 3y ago

> I don't get why the industry was not allowed to pursue low-silica engineered stone From what I can tell, the law itself allows for products under 1% silica. Now where did I read that ... "According to the ministers’ communique, exceptions will be introduced for the removal, repair, minor modification or disposal of engineered stone installed before 1 July 2024, as well as for products with trace levels of silica under 1%." https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/engineered-stone-bench-top-ban-confirmed-begin-2024-when https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/engin... Yes, that is a massively higher hurdle than natural stone has to meet.