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> I suspect his statements are carefully made to not technically meet the legal definition for fraud, but colloquially he's absolutely a liar. They're probably

> I suspect his statements are carefully made to not technically meet the legal definition for fraud, but colloquially he's absolutely a liar. They're probably not carefully made, but fraud requires knowledge of falsity, and short of an internal report saying "this feature won't be ready before XYZ," it is going to be extremely difficult to prove Tesla knew the claims were false. The other thing you'll run into is reasonability of reliance--at this point, with so many deadlines repeatedly blown through, it would be hard to demonstrate that a reasonable person could rely on a representation that a promised deadline would be met.

JohnFen 3y ago
I would think it would be hard to find a reasonable person who takes anything Musk says seriously anymore and yet plenty seem to.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  If you're not following Musk every day, and maybe just know he's the Tesla/rocket guy, why wouldn't you take him seriously? Somehow, this sounds like shifting blame from the liar to others ...
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I wasn't assigning or shifting blame for anything. I was just expressing that I am baffled by the reality.
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  The reason people follow Musk is that even though he over-promises and under-delivers; the under-delivered product is still better than the alternatives (or at least was for a while). People are not complete fools and can learn to discount over-the-top rhetoric; sure, some people are harmed by believing everything verbatim, but those people also fall for scams, etc, etc. His statements are parsed as statements of intent more so than actual timeline commitments. We'll have FSD in 6 months = FSD is our main priority at the moment. And sure it also makes for PR/free advertising. Is it scammy? Probably. But he likely got more out of people by pushing this false narrative than would have been otherwise accomplished.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I have real trouble with "the ends justify the means" arguments. > Is it scammy? Probably. It's the behavior of a con artist. > But he likely got more out of people by pushing this false narrative than would have been otherwise accomplished. Even if that's the case, he could have had the same, or better, effect without the lying. The lying is clearly aimed at gaining investment money and preorders, though, not at some bizarre attempt at motivating engineers.
    - czl 3y ago
      > The lying is clearly aimed at gaining investment money and preorders, though, not at some bizarre attempt at motivating engineers. It would be dumb to be caught "lying" over and over and Musk is not know to be dumb. Consider the possibility Musk is using reflexivity to accelerate progress. When people become convinced something is possible and work towards that goal their strong belief changes reality because there is a feedback loop between reality and beliefs.
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        It would be dumb to be caught agreeing with anti semitic tweets, and telling advertisers to "go fuck yourself", yet here we are. Your argument is invalid.
        czl 3y ago
        Intelligent people have faults and make mistakes like the rest of us. What sets them apart is they are often better at seeing this and fixing things. Did Musk not make amends for that tweet? Do you think advertising should control social media? Do you genuinely believe Musk is dumb?
        rpy 3y ago
        No, he did not make amends. He never even apologised for it.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  And I think it's safe to say that sycophants bending over backwards to carry Musk's water like DoesntMatter22 aren't reasonable people, don't base their opinions on facts or reality, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
  - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
    What I've said is completely factual. Surprisingly a lot of people like who won't actually prove that he said that. Because the fact is that he didn't.
HWR_14 3y ago
> fraud requires knowledge of falsity Does it? Is there no "average person should be aware" level?
dragonwriter 3y ago
> fraud requires knowledge of falsity, The civil tort of fraud (criminal fraud is different) generally requires either knowledge of falsity or reckless indifference to the truth.
NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
>fraud requires knowledge of falsity Or recklessness as to falsity - like not caring whether the statement was true or false.
wolverine876 3y ago
> with so many deadlines repeatedly blown through, it would be hard to demonstrate that a reasonable person could rely on a representation that a promised deadline would be met. That enables fraudsters, of course. Also, what about people who don't spend all their time on the Internet, on HN, reading about Elon Musk? They buy stocks and cars too.

JohnFen 3y ago

I would think it would be hard to find a reasonable person who takes anything Musk says seriously anymore and yet plenty seem to.

The_Colonel 3y ago
If you're not following Musk every day, and maybe just know he's the Tesla/rocket guy, why wouldn't you take him seriously? Somehow, this sounds like shifting blame from the liar to others ...
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I wasn't assigning or shifting blame for anything. I was just expressing that I am baffled by the reality.
medvezhenok 3y ago
The reason people follow Musk is that even though he over-promises and under-delivers; the under-delivered product is still better than the alternatives (or at least was for a while). People are not complete fools and can learn to discount over-the-top rhetoric; sure, some people are harmed by believing everything verbatim, but those people also fall for scams, etc, etc. His statements are parsed as statements of intent more so than actual timeline commitments. We'll have FSD in 6 months = FSD is our main priority at the moment. And sure it also makes for PR/free advertising. Is it scammy? Probably. But he likely got more out of people by pushing this false narrative than would have been otherwise accomplished.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I have real trouble with "the ends justify the means" arguments. > Is it scammy? Probably. It's the behavior of a con artist. > But he likely got more out of people by pushing this false narrative than would have been otherwise accomplished. Even if that's the case, he could have had the same, or better, effect without the lying. The lying is clearly aimed at gaining investment money and preorders, though, not at some bizarre attempt at motivating engineers.
  - czl 3y ago
    > The lying is clearly aimed at gaining investment money and preorders, though, not at some bizarre attempt at motivating engineers. It would be dumb to be caught "lying" over and over and Musk is not know to be dumb. Consider the possibility Musk is using reflexivity to accelerate progress. When people become convinced something is possible and work towards that goal their strong belief changes reality because there is a feedback loop between reality and beliefs.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      It would be dumb to be caught agreeing with anti semitic tweets, and telling advertisers to "go fuck yourself", yet here we are. Your argument is invalid.
      - czl 3y ago
        Intelligent people have faults and make mistakes like the rest of us. What sets them apart is they are often better at seeing this and fixing things. Did Musk not make amends for that tweet? Do you think advertising should control social media? Do you genuinely believe Musk is dumb?
        rpy 3y ago
        No, he did not make amends. He never even apologised for it.
DonHopkins 3y ago
And I think it's safe to say that sycophants bending over backwards to carry Musk's water like DoesntMatter22 aren't reasonable people, don't base their opinions on facts or reality, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  What I've said is completely factual. Surprisingly a lot of people like who won't actually prove that he said that. Because the fact is that he didn't.

HWR_14 3y ago

> fraud requires knowledge of falsity Does it? Is there no "average person should be aware" level?

dragonwriter 3y ago

> fraud requires knowledge of falsity, The civil tort of fraud (criminal fraud is different) generally requires either knowledge of falsity or reckless indifference to the truth.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago

>fraud requires knowledge of falsity Or recklessness as to falsity - like not caring whether the statement was true or false.

wolverine876 3y ago

> with so many deadlines repeatedly blown through, it would be hard to demonstrate that a reasonable person could rely on a representation that a promised deadline would be met. That enables fraudsters, of course. Also, what about people who don't spend all their time on the Internet, on HN, reading about Elon Musk? They buy stocks and cars too.