4 ms·

A video I found interesting related to this: https://youtu.be/iRdwXQb7CfM?si=j6g6TAm2uEw5aRb2 https://youtu.be/iRdwXQb7CfM?si=j6g6TAm2uEw5aRb2 Outdated buildi

by lokar 3y ago

A video I found interesting related to this: https://youtu.be/iRdwXQb7CfM?si=j6g6TAm2uEw5aRb2 https://youtu.be/iRdwXQb7CfM?si=j6g6TAm2uEw5aRb2 Outdated building codes require 2 stairs, making smaller multi-story housing infeasible. So only larger (whole block) projects pencil out, but people don’t like them because they don’t fit in well. I wonder if smaller (the size of 1-2 normal lots) 4-6 floor buildings spread out more would face less resistance.

bluGill 3y ago
Architects keep saying that, but buildings with two stairs have better records in fires.
- epistasis 3y ago
  I have yet to see any data supporting that. The data I have seen: Other countries without two stair requirements have better fire safety records than the US.
  - lokar 3y ago
    It does seem like a lot has changed: - more fire resistant building materials - automatic sprinklers - you are not allowed to smoke
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Right, but that is not comparing the same thing. They are comparing all builds in both countries, not buildings of otherwise similar construction. There are many confounding variables that nobody has tried to control for. Some of those are rather obvious, while others I'm not aware of. Maybe we should allow other one stairway in the US only if the building is built in a specific way, but so far nobody has advocated for that or even tried to identify factors other than stairway count. (I'm not aware of anyone trying this anyway - I expect someone has but I'm not aware of it)
    - epistasis 3y ago
      Countries with better fire records tend to have far more multi family housing than the US. Most of our code does not exist because of any sort of scientific vetting of ideas. It's mostly just winging it and trying to ban any housing except single family detached housing. Why are two stairs so much more important than being close to a staircase? Why is having a loooong hallway with dozens of families using the same staircase better than having immediate access to a stairway and only a handful of families using the staircase? Nobody ever showed that two means of egress are safer, they just went by gut.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        > Nobody ever showed that two means of egress are safer, they just went by gut. That also implies the inverse: nobody has shown that one means is safer, they just went by gut. Is being close to a stair really better worse than have two choices for exits it the open question and so far everyone seems to be asserting one or the other withing actually showing anything. I can show that new US apartments with two stairways, and a lot of other modern safety features are safer than older ones with one stairway and also missing many other safety features. This is not compelling evidence that two stairways is better than one since I'm not aware of anyone controlling on other safety features, but it is enough to demand some real studies before getting rid of that one feature.
        epistasis 3y ago
        > That also implies the inverse: nobody has shown that one means is safer, they just went by gut. But this directly contradicts the entire point of requiring two staircases: that it would be safer. The modern data we have shows that in countries with single stair exits and lots of people living in these units, they are safe, safer than the general outcome. The question is about one particular rule, not repealing all the safety advancements, and that one bad rule is two staircases. The data we have shows it's safe. I don't think there's any study that could be proposed that would satisfy critics, because ultimately this is not about safety, that's just a smokescreen. The point is to block convenient apartments, and whenever one safety study has been done exactly to the critics request, it will immediately be found lacking and an entirely different study will be demanded, or a new reason fabricated to shroud the true motivation: block convenient small apartments from being built.

by lokar 3y ago

bluGill 3y ago

Architects keep saying that, but buildings with two stairs have better records in fires.

epistasis 3y ago
I have yet to see any data supporting that. The data I have seen: Other countries without two stair requirements have better fire safety records than the US.
- lokar 3y ago
  It does seem like a lot has changed: - more fire resistant building materials - automatic sprinklers - you are not allowed to smoke
- bluGill 3y ago
  Right, but that is not comparing the same thing. They are comparing all builds in both countries, not buildings of otherwise similar construction. There are many confounding variables that nobody has tried to control for. Some of those are rather obvious, while others I'm not aware of. Maybe we should allow other one stairway in the US only if the building is built in a specific way, but so far nobody has advocated for that or even tried to identify factors other than stairway count. (I'm not aware of anyone trying this anyway - I expect someone has but I'm not aware of it)
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Countries with better fire records tend to have far more multi family housing than the US. Most of our code does not exist because of any sort of scientific vetting of ideas. It's mostly just winging it and trying to ban any housing except single family detached housing. Why are two stairs so much more important than being close to a staircase? Why is having a loooong hallway with dozens of families using the same staircase better than having immediate access to a stairway and only a handful of families using the staircase? Nobody ever showed that two means of egress are safer, they just went by gut.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      > Nobody ever showed that two means of egress are safer, they just went by gut. That also implies the inverse: nobody has shown that one means is safer, they just went by gut. Is being close to a stair really better worse than have two choices for exits it the open question and so far everyone seems to be asserting one or the other withing actually showing anything. I can show that new US apartments with two stairways, and a lot of other modern safety features are safer than older ones with one stairway and also missing many other safety features. This is not compelling evidence that two stairways is better than one since I'm not aware of anyone controlling on other safety features, but it is enough to demand some real studies before getting rid of that one feature.
      - epistasis 3y ago
        > That also implies the inverse: nobody has shown that one means is safer, they just went by gut. But this directly contradicts the entire point of requiring two staircases: that it would be safer. The modern data we have shows that in countries with single stair exits and lots of people living in these units, they are safe, safer than the general outcome. The question is about one particular rule, not repealing all the safety advancements, and that one bad rule is two staircases. The data we have shows it's safe. I don't think there's any study that could be proposed that would satisfy critics, because ultimately this is not about safety, that's just a smokescreen. The point is to block convenient apartments, and whenever one safety study has been done exactly to the critics request, it will immediately be found lacking and an entirely different study will be demanded, or a new reason fabricated to shroud the true motivation: block convenient small apartments from being built.