3 ms·

Over the years, it's become abundantly clear that solidarity is very foreign concept to HN.

ejb999 3y ago
in this case what does 'solidarity' mean? Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? I am not. I would rather get paid what the most I can/am able to negotiate, and live in a country with so many opportunities, that if I did ever get laid off, I could move to another opportunity with equally attractive pay and benefits easily. Giving up a huge chunk of your earnings potential in order to have your severance package, should you ever need it, be slightly better doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me.
- matsemann 3y ago
  > Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? That's a false dilemma. It's not like you would have to give up half your salary for this. > and live in a country with so many opportunities That's only because you're a SE. The rest of your country doesn't have those opportunities. I think rather most of them would have preferred the social security net of most European countries instead of working for less than minimum wage begging for tips, being laid of on a moments notice. I mean, how's SV with all the homeless, robberies etc.? Is that kind of society worth the slightly larger pay? Isn't it nice if your neighbors also have it good?
  - ejb999 3y ago
    the comment I was responding to was claiming that severance works better/is more generous in the EU - and presumably France based on the username - and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions...so yeah, you would need to give up 1/2 to 1/3 your salary for a fair comparison. I don't even live anywhere near SV, I used a $110K average for the USA in my example, if we were talking SV that would probably be closer to $400K, so 10X what a programmer in France might make. I really don't think anyone in SV would be willing to work as a programmer for what an average programmer in SV makes so that they were guaranteed a better payout if they got fired.
    - matsemann 3y ago
      My comment? I've never been to France. My point is that you can't compare these two things. It's not like having a fair severance packet immediately means you would need to halve your salary just because you compare with a country with a different salary level.
    - drekk 3y ago
      The cost of living is ~30% lower in Paris compared to a major US city like Los Angeles. If you factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary. That's before we even get into things like childcare, education, or transportation. If you really want to do an apples-apples comparison for income you should also take into account the difference in expenditures. Also, how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Do you think they're a representative sample of white collar workers for that city?
      - twelve40 3y ago
        > factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary 10x means 90% difference, all consumed by the more expensive healthcare? That's like one order of magnitude wrong. > how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Saved you a google: > The average total compensation of a Software Engineer in San Francisco Bay Area, US is $242,000. the topic was programmers, all "white collar workers" is not relevant to this conversation.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions... Healthcare costs could help to make up for that for many employees. The average American spent ~$13,000 in health care expenses in 2022, but a full time employee making minimum wage only gets ~$15,000 a year. Even if someone earns twice the minimum wage, healthcare costs will eat a huge percentage of what they'd earn. Obviously software in the US is an exception, although here too wages and benefits are being slashed at every opportunity. The tech industry is hard at work suppressing wages and hiring from a global pool of talent (and waiting for AI to replace employees) so jobs in software might not stay so nice for very long, except for a select few with the most rare skills.
  - pb7 3y ago
    How’s Paris with all the homeless, robberies, riots, trash, etc? Is it worth having a populace that is perpetually angry because they’re so reliant on the government? Can you tell us what ended up happening to the retirement age in France? To answer your question, yes, I want to live in a society where I can pursue an extremely high quality of life for myself and my family. My neighbors have it pretty damn good from what I can tell.
    - matsemann 3y ago
      I wouldn't know, as I've never been to France. Edit: wait, I was once on the French side of the alps. Hardly enough to let me speak with any authority on any thing but snow, though.

in this case what does 'solidarity' mean? Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? I am not. I would rather get paid what the most I can/am able to negotiate, and live in a country with so many opportunities, that if I did ever get laid off, I could move to another opportunity with equally attractive pay and benefits easily. Giving up a huge chunk of your earnings potential in order to have your severance package, should you ever need it, be slightly better doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me.

matsemann 3y ago
> Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? That's a false dilemma. It's not like you would have to give up half your salary for this. > and live in a country with so many opportunities That's only because you're a SE. The rest of your country doesn't have those opportunities. I think rather most of them would have preferred the social security net of most European countries instead of working for less than minimum wage begging for tips, being laid of on a moments notice. I mean, how's SV with all the homeless, robberies etc.? Is that kind of society worth the slightly larger pay? Isn't it nice if your neighbors also have it good?
- ejb999 3y ago
  the comment I was responding to was claiming that severance works better/is more generous in the EU - and presumably France based on the username - and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions...so yeah, you would need to give up 1/2 to 1/3 your salary for a fair comparison. I don't even live anywhere near SV, I used a $110K average for the USA in my example, if we were talking SV that would probably be closer to $400K, so 10X what a programmer in France might make. I really don't think anyone in SV would be willing to work as a programmer for what an average programmer in SV makes so that they were guaranteed a better payout if they got fired.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    My comment? I've never been to France. My point is that you can't compare these two things. It's not like having a fair severance packet immediately means you would need to halve your salary just because you compare with a country with a different salary level.
  - drekk 3y ago
    The cost of living is ~30% lower in Paris compared to a major US city like Los Angeles. If you factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary. That's before we even get into things like childcare, education, or transportation. If you really want to do an apples-apples comparison for income you should also take into account the difference in expenditures. Also, how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Do you think they're a representative sample of white collar workers for that city?
    - twelve40 3y ago
      > factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary 10x means 90% difference, all consumed by the more expensive healthcare? That's like one order of magnitude wrong. > how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Saved you a google: > The average total compensation of a Software Engineer in San Francisco Bay Area, US is $242,000. the topic was programmers, all "white collar workers" is not relevant to this conversation.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions... Healthcare costs could help to make up for that for many employees. The average American spent ~$13,000 in health care expenses in 2022, but a full time employee making minimum wage only gets ~$15,000 a year. Even if someone earns twice the minimum wage, healthcare costs will eat a huge percentage of what they'd earn. Obviously software in the US is an exception, although here too wages and benefits are being slashed at every opportunity. The tech industry is hard at work suppressing wages and hiring from a global pool of talent (and waiting for AI to replace employees) so jobs in software might not stay so nice for very long, except for a select few with the most rare skills.
- pb7 3y ago
  How’s Paris with all the homeless, robberies, riots, trash, etc? Is it worth having a populace that is perpetually angry because they’re so reliant on the government? Can you tell us what ended up happening to the retirement age in France? To answer your question, yes, I want to live in a society where I can pursue an extremely high quality of life for myself and my family. My neighbors have it pretty damn good from what I can tell.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    I wouldn't know, as I've never been to France. Edit: wait, I was once on the French side of the alps. Hardly enough to let me speak with any authority on any thing but snow, though.