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average programmer salary in the USA ~$110K, average programmer salary in France ~$43K, Germany: $52K, UK: $55K etc. Yea, I am OK with the American model.

by ejb999 3y ago

matsemann 3y ago
My point was kinda that it should extend to other industries, not just programmers. Compassion for others.
- elktown 3y ago
  Over the years, it's become abundantly clear that solidarity is very foreign concept to HN.
  - ejb999 3y ago
    in this case what does 'solidarity' mean? Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? I am not. I would rather get paid what the most I can/am able to negotiate, and live in a country with so many opportunities, that if I did ever get laid off, I could move to another opportunity with equally attractive pay and benefits easily. Giving up a huge chunk of your earnings potential in order to have your severance package, should you ever need it, be slightly better doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me.
    - matsemann 3y ago
      > Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? That's a false dilemma. It's not like you would have to give up half your salary for this. > and live in a country with so many opportunities That's only because you're a SE. The rest of your country doesn't have those opportunities. I think rather most of them would have preferred the social security net of most European countries instead of working for less than minimum wage begging for tips, being laid of on a moments notice. I mean, how's SV with all the homeless, robberies etc.? Is that kind of society worth the slightly larger pay? Isn't it nice if your neighbors also have it good?
      - ejb999 3y ago
        the comment I was responding to was claiming that severance works better/is more generous in the EU - and presumably France based on the username - and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions...so yeah, you would need to give up 1/2 to 1/3 your salary for a fair comparison. I don't even live anywhere near SV, I used a $110K average for the USA in my example, if we were talking SV that would probably be closer to $400K, so 10X what a programmer in France might make. I really don't think anyone in SV would be willing to work as a programmer for what an average programmer in SV makes so that they were guaranteed a better payout if they got fired.
        matsemann 3y ago
        My comment? I've never been to France. My point is that you can't compare these two things. It's not like having a fair severance packet immediately means you would need to halve your salary just because you compare with a country with a different salary level.
        drekk 3y ago
        The cost of living is ~30% lower in Paris compared to a major US city like Los Angeles. If you factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary. That's before we even get into things like childcare, education, or transportation. If you really want to do an apples-apples comparison for income you should also take into account the difference in expenditures. Also, how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Do you think they're a representative sample of white collar workers for that city?
        twelve40 3y ago
        > factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary 10x means 90% difference, all consumed by the more expensive healthcare? That's like one order of magnitude wrong. > how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Saved you a google: > The average total compensation of a Software Engineer in San Francisco Bay Area, US is $242,000. the topic was programmers, all "white collar workers" is not relevant to this conversation.
frenchman99 3y ago
You're disregarding taxation and cost of living. Your numbers on their own mean nothing. Oh, and USA is one the countries with most inequality, which plays in favor of a minority at the expense of the vast majority. Different story in France, for instance, where solidarity between rich and poor is higher through taxes, although not perfect. Really depends what you want out of life.
- pb7 3y ago
  Taxes are higher in Europe and cost of living is not low. US “inequality” exists because the ceiling is high but medians still meet or exceed Europe. You’re disregarding that Europe is reaping what it has sown when it comes to economic development.
  - drekk 3y ago
    Compare the cost of living in Berlin to even rust belt US cities and it's really not favorable to the US. If you want to include "healthcare premiums" in the calculation as a tax then the US pays more taxes per capita than most of the EU member states like France or Germany. Not sure how you are measuring "inequality", but even in a backwater like Hungary you don't have adults rationing insulin made for pets.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      Most metrics disagree with you. The US is on average cheaper to live in compared to the average revenue. That can be seen in average household debt too, as those are pretty high in Europe.
shubb 3y ago
I'm not sure that these two things are related. It is possible in an era of remote work to outsource any American software job to a lower paid, better skilled worker in a low cost of labour country. Companies choose not to do this. Maybe they want people they can meet, maybe investors don't like it, maybe the paperwork scares then. I don't know the reason but every American programmer who has a job has it because thier employer chose not to hire a better cheaper foreigner with less rights. Looking at it this way we can say that the American job market and salary expectations are not related to international salaries. And it follows that the same can be true in Europe. My personal theory is, the world runs on dollars. America prints dollars. The closer you are to the fountain the more water you get, so Americans get more dollars.

average programmer salary in the USA ~$110K, average programmer salary in France ~$43K, Germany: $52K, UK: $55K etc. Yea, I am OK with the American model.

by ejb999 3y ago

average programmer salary in the USA ~$110K, average programmer salary in France ~$43K, Germany: $52K, UK: $55K etc. Yea, I am OK with the American model.

matsemann 3y ago

My point was kinda that it should extend to other industries, not just programmers. Compassion for others.

elktown 3y ago
Over the years, it's become abundantly clear that solidarity is very foreign concept to HN.
- ejb999 3y ago
  in this case what does 'solidarity' mean? Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? I am not. I would rather get paid what the most I can/am able to negotiate, and live in a country with so many opportunities, that if I did ever get laid off, I could move to another opportunity with equally attractive pay and benefits easily. Giving up a huge chunk of your earnings potential in order to have your severance package, should you ever need it, be slightly better doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    > Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? That's a false dilemma. It's not like you would have to give up half your salary for this. > and live in a country with so many opportunities That's only because you're a SE. The rest of your country doesn't have those opportunities. I think rather most of them would have preferred the social security net of most European countries instead of working for less than minimum wage begging for tips, being laid of on a moments notice. I mean, how's SV with all the homeless, robberies etc.? Is that kind of society worth the slightly larger pay? Isn't it nice if your neighbors also have it good?
    - ejb999 3y ago
      the comment I was responding to was claiming that severance works better/is more generous in the EU - and presumably France based on the username - and almost across the board salaries in France are 1/2 to 1/3 what they are in the USA for many professions...so yeah, you would need to give up 1/2 to 1/3 your salary for a fair comparison. I don't even live anywhere near SV, I used a $110K average for the USA in my example, if we were talking SV that would probably be closer to $400K, so 10X what a programmer in France might make. I really don't think anyone in SV would be willing to work as a programmer for what an average programmer in SV makes so that they were guaranteed a better payout if they got fired.
      - matsemann 3y ago
        My comment? I've never been to France. My point is that you can't compare these two things. It's not like having a fair severance packet immediately means you would need to halve your salary just because you compare with a country with a different salary level.
      - drekk 3y ago
        The cost of living is ~30% lower in Paris compared to a major US city like Los Angeles. If you factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary. That's before we even get into things like childcare, education, or transportation. If you really want to do an apples-apples comparison for income you should also take into account the difference in expenditures. Also, how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Do you think they're a representative sample of white collar workers for that city?
        twelve40 3y ago
        > factor in what people pay here for healthcare premiums you've accounted for most of the difference in salary 10x means 90% difference, all consumed by the more expensive healthcare? That's like one order of magnitude wrong. > how many SWEs in SV make $400k? Saved you a google: > The average total compensation of a Software Engineer in San Francisco Bay Area, US is $242,000. the topic was programmers, all "white collar workers" is not relevant to this conversation.

frenchman99 3y ago

You're disregarding taxation and cost of living. Your numbers on their own mean nothing. Oh, and USA is one the countries with most inequality, which plays in favor of a minority at the expense of the vast majority. Different story in France, for instance, where solidarity between rich and poor is higher through taxes, although not perfect. Really depends what you want out of life.

pb7 3y ago
Taxes are higher in Europe and cost of living is not low. US “inequality” exists because the ceiling is high but medians still meet or exceed Europe. You’re disregarding that Europe is reaping what it has sown when it comes to economic development.
- drekk 3y ago
  Compare the cost of living in Berlin to even rust belt US cities and it's really not favorable to the US. If you want to include "healthcare premiums" in the calculation as a tax then the US pays more taxes per capita than most of the EU member states like France or Germany. Not sure how you are measuring "inequality", but even in a backwater like Hungary you don't have adults rationing insulin made for pets.
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Most metrics disagree with you. The US is on average cheaper to live in compared to the average revenue. That can be seen in average household debt too, as those are pretty high in Europe.

shubb 3y ago

I'm not sure that these two things are related. It is possible in an era of remote work to outsource any American software job to a lower paid, better skilled worker in a low cost of labour country. Companies choose not to do this. Maybe they want people they can meet, maybe investors don't like it, maybe the paperwork scares then. I don't know the reason but every American programmer who has a job has it because thier employer chose not to hire a better cheaper foreigner with less rights. Looking at it this way we can say that the American job market and salary expectations are not related to international salaries. And it follows that the same can be true in Europe. My personal theory is, the world runs on dollars. America prints dollars. The closer you are to the fountain the more water you get, so Americans get more dollars.