5 ms·

Then frankly, we would probably fall to level of innovation that modern Europe is known for.

piva00 3y ago
There's much more surrounding the USA's innovation engine than treating employees like shit. Perhaps would be good to look at what's working and what's not instead of just assuming that better protection for workers, which are the ones directly and literally creating the value, would cause a catastrophe. Or please direct me to some literature supporting your opinion. Edit: Page 19 here [0] would directly question your assumption. [0] https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-main-report-global-innovation-index-2023-16th-edition.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-...
pjmlp 3y ago
Industry doesn't need slave labour, with people happy for any goodie their feudal lord feels like giving, for innovation.
- anonporridge 3y ago
  It's not about slave labor, although all job dependent people are wage slaves even in a union. It's about labor market flexibility. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibility.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibilit... Overly strong labor unions make the entire economy less nimble in rapidly changing environments.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I rather take my European IT union, thank you. No need for gig economy "flexibility ", making rich millionaires.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  The US has higher salaries than Europe, way higher, so calling it slave labor is rich. Wish people would understand that just because Europe does something doesn’t make it the right way to do things. As far as reality shows, the US system is the most innovative and the European one is definitely not.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Some lucky people have higher salary than in Europe, while others have to beg Red Cross to take care of them, while living between pay checks.
    - pb7 3y ago
      Wrong. Median disposable income is higher on average across all occupations. Software engineer income is significantly higher. The top 10% in the US is not even fathomable in Europe.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Work to live, not live to work. https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/ https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      As opposed to Europe, which is known to not have homeless or poor people.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        At least those are supported by national social healthcare.
nicbou 3y ago
This reminds me of Louis CK's line "you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people". Is the cost worth it? Do I want fair conditions and a good work balance, or do I want to brag about something that made my employer's shareholders really proud? Is the pay worth it if I can't miss a day of work to tend to more important matters? I run a website for immigrants in Germany. I have to spend a lot of words explaining that it's okay to take sick days, that you won't lose your insurance if you lose your job, and other things that Europeans take for granted.
- anonporridge 3y ago
  > you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people I think this is a completely wrong take from the armchair philosophers. You actually can't do great things when you treat people like shit. The people who actually do great things strike the right balance between applying pressure and requiring excellence and treating people well. The results of purely treating people like slaves is mediocre. Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed.
  - FrankoDelMar 3y ago
    Maybe it's not meant to be taken literally. I read it as, "You can achieve great things when you loosen your system of ethics and are okay with a net increase in human suffering."
  - drewcoo 3y ago
    > Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed. Half right. It's currently believed that the bulk of the workers were lots and lots of paid laborers. Not craftsmen. That would be expensive! https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-build-the-pyramids https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-...
- golergka 3y ago
  A typical software engineer in Germany earns about €60-80k.
arpyzo 3y ago
I could do without a significant amount of what constitutes "innovation" in the US.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  "Innovation" has become a straight-up fetish in the US tech sector, and that fetish is increasingly a cause of a great deal of harm.
pradn 3y ago
Europe isn't good at building massive tech companies. But its hard to say Europe is not a leader in scientific and technological innovation. Just in tech, Europe developed ARM chips, ASML lithography machines, and DeepMind's AI breakthroughs. These underpin a few trillion dollars of global economic activity.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Europe isn't good at building massive tech companies. Which is a good thing. Massive tech companies are a negative thing, not a positive thing.
  - pradn 3y ago
    It's a mixed bag. Only sheer scale allowed Apple to pour in a huge amount of money into their M chips, probably the most important consumer-facing innovation on desktops in the past 5 years.
toddmorey 3y ago
Ok, two things: first, America’s lock on innovation is already waning, so it would be dangerous to think we’ll continue to compete globally solely by out innovating other regions. Secondly, I strongly doubt shitty labor laws have been the secret formula behind the success.
__loam 3y ago
It sucks that people will screech about vague bullshit like innovation whenever we try to make working here suck less.

There's much more surrounding the USA's innovation engine than treating employees like shit. Perhaps would be good to look at what's working and what's not instead of just assuming that better protection for workers, which are the ones directly and literally creating the value, would cause a catastrophe. Or please direct me to some literature supporting your opinion. Edit: Page 19 here [0] would directly question your assumption. [0] https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-main-report-global-innovation-index-2023-16th-edition.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-...

pjmlp 3y ago

Industry doesn't need slave labour, with people happy for any goodie their feudal lord feels like giving, for innovation.

anonporridge 3y ago
It's not about slave labor, although all job dependent people are wage slaves even in a union. It's about labor market flexibility. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibility.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibilit... Overly strong labor unions make the entire economy less nimble in rapidly changing environments.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I rather take my European IT union, thank you. No need for gig economy "flexibility ", making rich millionaires.
edgyquant 3y ago
The US has higher salaries than Europe, way higher, so calling it slave labor is rich. Wish people would understand that just because Europe does something doesn’t make it the right way to do things. As far as reality shows, the US system is the most innovative and the European one is definitely not.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Some lucky people have higher salary than in Europe, while others have to beg Red Cross to take care of them, while living between pay checks.
  - pb7 3y ago
    Wrong. Median disposable income is higher on average across all occupations. Software engineer income is significantly higher. The top 10% in the US is not even fathomable in Europe.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Work to live, not live to work. https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/ https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    As opposed to Europe, which is known to not have homeless or poor people.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      At least those are supported by national social healthcare.

nicbou 3y ago

This reminds me of Louis CK's line "you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people". Is the cost worth it? Do I want fair conditions and a good work balance, or do I want to brag about something that made my employer's shareholders really proud? Is the pay worth it if I can't miss a day of work to tend to more important matters? I run a website for immigrants in Germany. I have to spend a lot of words explaining that it's okay to take sick days, that you won't lose your insurance if you lose your job, and other things that Europeans take for granted.

anonporridge 3y ago
> you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people I think this is a completely wrong take from the armchair philosophers. You actually can't do great things when you treat people like shit. The people who actually do great things strike the right balance between applying pressure and requiring excellence and treating people well. The results of purely treating people like slaves is mediocre. Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed.
- FrankoDelMar 3y ago
  Maybe it's not meant to be taken literally. I read it as, "You can achieve great things when you loosen your system of ethics and are okay with a net increase in human suffering."
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed. Half right. It's currently believed that the bulk of the workers were lots and lots of paid laborers. Not craftsmen. That would be expensive! https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-build-the-pyramids https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-...
golergka 3y ago
A typical software engineer in Germany earns about €60-80k.

arpyzo 3y ago

I could do without a significant amount of what constitutes "innovation" in the US.

JohnFen 3y ago
"Innovation" has become a straight-up fetish in the US tech sector, and that fetish is increasingly a cause of a great deal of harm.

pradn 3y ago

Europe isn't good at building massive tech companies. But its hard to say Europe is not a leader in scientific and technological innovation. Just in tech, Europe developed ARM chips, ASML lithography machines, and DeepMind's AI breakthroughs. These underpin a few trillion dollars of global economic activity.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Europe isn't good at building massive tech companies. Which is a good thing. Massive tech companies are a negative thing, not a positive thing.
- pradn 3y ago
  It's a mixed bag. Only sheer scale allowed Apple to pour in a huge amount of money into their M chips, probably the most important consumer-facing innovation on desktops in the past 5 years.

toddmorey 3y ago

Ok, two things: first, America’s lock on innovation is already waning, so it would be dangerous to think we’ll continue to compete globally solely by out innovating other regions. Secondly, I strongly doubt shitty labor laws have been the secret formula behind the success.

__loam 3y ago

It sucks that people will screech about vague bullshit like innovation whenever we try to make working here suck less.