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> I appreciate that our industry has developed a norm of generous severance What if you had unions or proper labor laws that actually guaranteed this? As an Eu
by matsemann 3y ago
> I appreciate that our industry has developed a norm of generous severance
What if you had unions or proper labor laws that actually guaranteed this? As an European it's weird to see you having to rely on the "kindness" of the company to not get fcked over.
- anonporridge 3y agoThen frankly, we would probably fall to level of innovation that modern Europe is known for.
- piva00 3y agoThere's much more surrounding the USA's innovation engine than treating employees like shit. Perhaps would be good to look at what's working and what's not instead of just assuming that better protection for workers, which are the ones directly and literally creating the value, would cause a catastrophe. Or please direct me to some literature supporting your opinion. Edit: Page 19 here [0] would directly question your assumption. [0] https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-main-report-global-innovation-index-2023-16th-edition.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-...
- pjmlp 3y agoIndustry doesn't need slave labour, with people happy for any goodie their feudal lord feels like giving, for innovation.
- anonporridge 3y agoIt's not about slave labor, although all job dependent people are wage slaves even in a union. It's about labor market flexibility. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibility.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibilit... Overly strong labor unions make the entire economy less nimble in rapidly changing environments.
- pjmlp 3y agoI rather take my European IT union, thank you. No need for gig economy "flexibility ", making rich millionaires.
- edgyquant 3y agoThe US has higher salaries than Europe, way higher, so calling it slave labor is rich. Wish people would understand that just because Europe does something doesn’t make it the right way to do things. As far as reality shows, the US system is the most innovative and the European one is definitely not.
- pjmlp 3y agoSome lucky people have higher salary than in Europe, while others have to beg Red Cross to take care of them, while living between pay checks.
- pb7 3y agoWrong. Median disposable income is higher on average across all occupations. Software engineer income is significantly higher. The top 10% in the US is not even fathomable in Europe.
- pjmlp 3y agoWork to live, not live to work. https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/ https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/
- mardifoufs 3y agoAs opposed to Europe, which is known to not have homeless or poor people.
- pjmlp 3y agoAt least those are supported by national social healthcare.
- nicbou 3y agoThis reminds me of Louis CK's line "you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people". Is the cost worth it? Do I want fair conditions and a good work balance, or do I want to brag about something that made my employer's shareholders really proud? Is the pay worth it if I can't miss a day of work to tend to more important matters? I run a website for immigrants in Germany. I have to spend a lot of words explaining that it's okay to take sick days, that you won't lose your insurance if you lose your job, and other things that Europeans take for granted.
- anonporridge 3y ago> you can achieve great things when you don't give a shit about people I think this is a completely wrong take from the armchair philosophers. You actually can't do great things when you treat people like shit. The people who actually do great things strike the right balance between applying pressure and requiring excellence and treating people well. The results of purely treating people like slaves is mediocre. Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed.
- FrankoDelMar 3y agoMaybe it's not meant to be taken literally. I read it as, "You can achieve great things when you loosen your system of ethics and are okay with a net increase in human suffering."
- drewcoo 3y ago> Even the pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen, not slaves as is commonly believed. Half right. It's currently believed that the bulk of the workers were lots and lots of paid laborers. Not craftsmen. That would be expensive! https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-build-the-pyramids https://www.britannica.com/video/226777/did-enslaved-people-...
- golergka 3y agoA typical software engineer in Germany earns about €60-80k.
- arpyzo 3y agoI could do without a significant amount of what constitutes "innovation" in the US.
- JohnFen 3y ago"Innovation" has become a straight-up fetish in the US tech sector, and that fetish is increasingly a cause of a great deal of harm.
- pradn 3y agoEurope isn't good at building massive tech companies. But its hard to say Europe is not a leader in scientific and technological innovation. Just in tech, Europe developed ARM chips, ASML lithography machines, and DeepMind's AI breakthroughs. These underpin a few trillion dollars of global economic activity.
- JohnFen 3y ago> Europe isn't good at building massive tech companies. Which is a good thing. Massive tech companies are a negative thing, not a positive thing.
- pradn 3y agoIt's a mixed bag. Only sheer scale allowed Apple to pour in a huge amount of money into their M chips, probably the most important consumer-facing innovation on desktops in the past 5 years.
- toddmorey 3y agoOk, two things: first, America’s lock on innovation is already waning, so it would be dangerous to think we’ll continue to compete globally solely by out innovating other regions. Secondly, I strongly doubt shitty labor laws have been the secret formula behind the success.
- __loam 3y agoIt sucks that people will screech about vague bullshit like innovation whenever we try to make working here suck less.
- SCUSKU 3y agoYeah this might work for larger tech companies, but when I was working for a Series A startup and got laid off I got 2 weeks. Same thing happened to a friend as well.
- golergka 3y agoI worked at a seed startup and got 3 months, and I was legally just a contractor.
- jzb 3y agoWhat if? I mean, we need better labor laws right now just to be able to form unions (if folks wanted to) and about half the country (or more) thinks things like regulation or unions are Evil Communist Socialism(TM). That is to say, you're not wrong but if the hope is that people are going to be like "by golly, I've never thought of that, I'll just run right out and join a union" um... no.
- golergka 3y ago> What if you had unions or proper labor laws that actually guaranteed this? Then hiring would be much more expensive, much less new companies would be able to start up, and as a result, salaries in tech would be 2-3 times lower, like in Europe. What would you choose, a 2-3 times higher salary or a guarantee of things that you would often get anyway?
- squigz 3y agoThe guarantee.
- coldpie 3y agoThe guarantee, provided all my neighbors also get it. US tech salaries are way too high.
- JohnFen 3y agoThe guarantee.
- matsemann 3y agoWhat about non-tech workers? Don't they deserve the same? The fact that you have no security net in the US is probably also harmful when it comes to startups. Few can take the risk.
- piva00 3y ago> What would you choose, a 2-3 times higher salary or a guarantee of things that you would often get anyway? If it meant a guarantee for all workers, allowing people to not become desperate enough to become porch pirates, or break into cars to steal stuff, or point a gun to my head because I have more stuff than them, or any other social malaise fanned by the lack of safety nets, I'd take the guarantee 10 out of 10 times.
- ejb999 3y agoaverage programmer salary in the USA ~$110K, average programmer salary in France ~$43K, Germany: $52K, UK: $55K etc. Yea, I am OK with the American model.
- matsemann 3y agoMy point was kinda that it should extend to other industries, not just programmers. Compassion for others.
- elktown 3y agoOver the years, it's become abundantly clear that solidarity is very foreign concept to HN.
- ejb999 3y agoin this case what does 'solidarity' mean? Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? I am not. I would rather get paid what the most I can/am able to negotiate, and live in a country with so many opportunities, that if I did ever get laid off, I could move to another opportunity with equally attractive pay and benefits easily. Giving up a huge chunk of your earnings potential in order to have your severance package, should you ever need it, be slightly better doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me.
- matsemann 3y ago> Are you personally willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the pay you receive, so that if you ever get laid off you have a slightly better severance package? That's a false dilemma. It's not like you would have to give up half your salary for this. > and live in a country with so many opportunities That's only because you're a SE. The rest of your country doesn't have those opportunities. I think rather most of them would have preferred the social security net of most European countries instead of working for less than minimum wage begging for tips, being laid of on a moments notice. I mean, how's SV with all the homeless, robberies etc.? Is that kind of society worth the slightly larger pay? Isn't it nice if your neighbors also have it good?