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The correlation of IQ with income is 0.30[0]. Educational attainment is 0.32. So if you are intelligent (talented) or educated then you are statistically likely

The correlation of IQ with income is 0.30[0]. Educational attainment is 0.32. So if you are intelligent (talented) or educated then you are statistically likely to have above average income. If you have both even more so. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289607000219 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602... (https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2007.02.003 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2007.02....) page 5 table 1.

Cpoll 3y ago
That's correlation at best (as you said, but worth emphasizing). And IQ is a problematic metric for anything other than how good you are at taking IQ tests.
- RationalDino 3y ago
  IQ measurement definitely has major flaws.. But IQ is better correlated with job performance than job interviews are. As they say, perfect is the enemy of good. IQ tests are good. We do ourselves no favors by attempting to downplay what standardized testing tells us.
- 10xDev 3y ago
  After a point, say 130 IQ, the differences between people's capacity become intangible. But there is certainly a big difference between someone under 80 IQ and someone with 130 IQ, which is why the US military doesn't even accept individuals under 80 IQ.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
I didn't read the paper, but are we sure that A (wealth/education) follows B (IQ) and not vice versa?
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  We are almost sure that genetics (and perhaps nutrition) are the main determinants of IQ. We won't have a complete answer until most of the genes that affect intelligence are found. With regard to your specific question of if educational attainment is the main factor in causing IQ to increase, that would mean that everyone at high-school would have the same IQ because they all have the same educational attainment (inasmuch as what "educational attainment" means in this paper). Wealth of one's parents is a harder problem. I believe that it is not a significant contributing factor beyond not being malnourished. This is based on the fact that the average IQ of some poor countries is higher than the average IQ of some richer countries. But like I said a complete solution to this problem, or – more boldly – an answer that blank-slatists would have no choice but to accept, would involve a more complete understanding of the genetic component including most genes as well as relevant ncDNA sequences.
  - shkkmo 3y ago
    Genetics account for roughly half of the variation of intelligence between individuals. That leaves a ton of room for other factors, such as nutrition, health, and education, to create significant disparities.
    - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
      Do you have a source for that claim? Might you be misquoting a different popular statistic that g accounts for roughly have of intelligence between individuals? Or perhaps the figure that intelligence is about 50% heritable?[0] It is important to note that heritability of a trait and the extent to which a trait is genetically caused are not the same. It is possible for a trait to be eg. 80% caused by genetics and only 60% heritable, even on the average. This can be the case where the trait is defined by multiple genes (and non-coding DNA) where the proportion of the different genes matters and where specific combinations of genes are necessary. Also heritability of intelligence has been reported as higher than 75%. [0] Eg. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01027-y#Sec8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01027-y#Sec8
roflyear 3y ago
IQ tests are not exactly designed for poor people, eh?
- kapp_in_life 3y ago
  Are they not? Most I've seen tend to be sorts of abstract pattern matching things. As opposed to basing IQ on ability to play piano or other traits less prevalent in poor communities. Obviously nothing is perfect but it seems disingenuous to claim they're not designed for poor people to be able to complete them.
  - jack2312 3y ago
    I don't believe that IQ tests are designed with a bias for or against the poor, so I'm not going to argue either side of that. I would like to point out however that poverty (or even a hypothetical worry about financial matters) has been shown to reduce fluid intelligence (which IQ tests measure) significantly. This is because people facing poverty have less mental bandwidth. The effect is strong enough to bring a person with "superior" IQ down to "average", or an "average" IQ down to "borderline deficient". If you're interested in the subject, I'd highly recommend the book _Scarcity_ by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir. If you'd like a shorter and more concise version, there's also an article titled "The Science of Scarcity" [0] in Harvard Magazine about the book that summarizes it quite well. I'm not an expert on the subject though, so if anyone has reference to any evidence that poverty has no effect on IQ testing, I'd (sincerely) be interested to see it, to get a different perspective. [0]: https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2015/04/the-science-of-scarcity https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2015/04/the-science-of-scarc...
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
Since men make more money than women, does that mean men are smarter than women? Hmmmmmmmm. Maybe statistics isn't the crystal ball it seems.

Cpoll 3y ago

That's correlation at best (as you said, but worth emphasizing). And IQ is a problematic metric for anything other than how good you are at taking IQ tests.

RationalDino 3y ago
IQ measurement definitely has major flaws.. But IQ is better correlated with job performance than job interviews are. As they say, perfect is the enemy of good. IQ tests are good. We do ourselves no favors by attempting to downplay what standardized testing tells us.
10xDev 3y ago
After a point, say 130 IQ, the differences between people's capacity become intangible. But there is certainly a big difference between someone under 80 IQ and someone with 130 IQ, which is why the US military doesn't even accept individuals under 80 IQ.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

I didn't read the paper, but are we sure that A (wealth/education) follows B (IQ) and not vice versa?

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
We are almost sure that genetics (and perhaps nutrition) are the main determinants of IQ. We won't have a complete answer until most of the genes that affect intelligence are found. With regard to your specific question of if educational attainment is the main factor in causing IQ to increase, that would mean that everyone at high-school would have the same IQ because they all have the same educational attainment (inasmuch as what "educational attainment" means in this paper). Wealth of one's parents is a harder problem. I believe that it is not a significant contributing factor beyond not being malnourished. This is based on the fact that the average IQ of some poor countries is higher than the average IQ of some richer countries. But like I said a complete solution to this problem, or – more boldly – an answer that blank-slatists would have no choice but to accept, would involve a more complete understanding of the genetic component including most genes as well as relevant ncDNA sequences.
- shkkmo 3y ago
  Genetics account for roughly half of the variation of intelligence between individuals. That leaves a ton of room for other factors, such as nutrition, health, and education, to create significant disparities.
  - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
    Do you have a source for that claim? Might you be misquoting a different popular statistic that g accounts for roughly have of intelligence between individuals? Or perhaps the figure that intelligence is about 50% heritable?[0] It is important to note that heritability of a trait and the extent to which a trait is genetically caused are not the same. It is possible for a trait to be eg. 80% caused by genetics and only 60% heritable, even on the average. This can be the case where the trait is defined by multiple genes (and non-coding DNA) where the proportion of the different genes matters and where specific combinations of genes are necessary. Also heritability of intelligence has been reported as higher than 75%. [0] Eg. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01027-y#Sec8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01027-y#Sec8

roflyear 3y ago

IQ tests are not exactly designed for poor people, eh?

kapp_in_life 3y ago
Are they not? Most I've seen tend to be sorts of abstract pattern matching things. As opposed to basing IQ on ability to play piano or other traits less prevalent in poor communities. Obviously nothing is perfect but it seems disingenuous to claim they're not designed for poor people to be able to complete them.
- jack2312 3y ago
  I don't believe that IQ tests are designed with a bias for or against the poor, so I'm not going to argue either side of that. I would like to point out however that poverty (or even a hypothetical worry about financial matters) has been shown to reduce fluid intelligence (which IQ tests measure) significantly. This is because people facing poverty have less mental bandwidth. The effect is strong enough to bring a person with "superior" IQ down to "average", or an "average" IQ down to "borderline deficient". If you're interested in the subject, I'd highly recommend the book _Scarcity_ by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir. If you'd like a shorter and more concise version, there's also an article titled "The Science of Scarcity" [0] in Harvard Magazine about the book that summarizes it quite well. I'm not an expert on the subject though, so if anyone has reference to any evidence that poverty has no effect on IQ testing, I'd (sincerely) be interested to see it, to get a different perspective. [0]: https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2015/04/the-science-of-scarcity https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2015/04/the-science-of-scarc...

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

Since men make more money than women, does that mean men are smarter than women? Hmmmmmmmm. Maybe statistics isn't the crystal ball it seems.