9 ms·

> They’ll receive severance of 16 weeks of base pay, plus one week for each full year of service, along with other benefits like extended COBRA health insurance

by lkbm 3y ago

> They’ll receive severance of 16 weeks of base pay, plus one week for each full year of service, along with other benefits like extended COBRA health insurance benefits and the ability to keep their company laptop. Getting laid off in December isn't fun (getting laid off any time isn't fun), but I appreciate that our industry has developed a norm of generous severance. Four months+ pay is four months+ more than I got working at a non-profit in education. If my work isn't paying for, whether due to "macro environment" or something else, it's better if I go do something where I am worth my pay, but not if I'm put in severe financial jeopardy during the switch. Providing several months of severance makes that transition, while still destabilizing and stressful, much, much easier. I wish more workers got this. Now I'm thinking that next time I'm applying for jobs, one of my questions for them will be about any past layoffs. No company that's been around for a while will be able to say "we've never laid anyone off", but if one says "we let them keep their five-year-old laptop" and another says "we gave them several months severance pay", that will be a factor in my decision.

cableshaft 3y ago
Most I've ever gotten for severance was 1 week pay (and I've been laid off 3 times). And that's even in tech (video game studio). My previous company (a large corporation) did 1 week per year you worked there, capped at 4 weeks (one person I know that was laid off was there for 17 years, only got the 4 weeks). They actually used to be more generous but made significant cuts to their severance benefits shortly before layoffs so they could save a bunch of money on it (they also took away 401k match later, reduced PTO days, eliminated bonuses, froze raises, made our health care benefits worse, let tons of people leave without authorizing filling in gaps so many departments became overworked skeleton crews, all sorts of crap to save money). So at least in that case, it wouldn't have mattered if I asked what their severance policies were while interviewing.
- ska 3y ago
  There is a point in the company size (in some metric) vs. job responsibility curve where you can successfully make contract changes, within reason. One thing you should absolutely consider is pushing for a specific severance clause. This serves two purposes, an indication of their seriousness about your position, and some peace of mind (e.g. have 6/12 months or whatever in your pocket). That being said, there are scenarios where you won't see a penny of it. Also, depending on your jurisdiction and job tenure, you may have a very viable claim for more severance. Nobody is likely to offer you more than statutory (or whatever is in your contract) without asking, but it may be worth paying a lawyer hour or so to find out properly.
- cipheredStones 3y ago
  > And that's even in tech (video game studio). Given everything I've ever heard about working conditions, pay, and benefits in video game studios, it seems more appropriate to think of them as opposite to the mainstream software industry rather than a part of it.
  - brandall10 3y ago
    The vast majority of layoffs in tech (not 'big tech' or name brand companies) is likely closer to 1 week than 16 weeks. Sorry to be contrarian, but the only companies that do these bigger packages are doing it because it will be in the news.
    - cipheredStones 3y ago
      If you're making a universal claim like that, you are just being contrarian. My last job was at a Series C startup that you've probably never heard of, and when they had to lay off 2/3rds of their employees in late 2020 due to the pandemic, they gave a couple months of severance (don't remember the exact amount, I wasn't laid off) + extended COBRA coverage.
      - brandall10 3y ago
        Still is a series C startup that almost certainly is trying to keep its brand intact up rehire after the uncertainty dissipated. I think you're being unrealistic as to what the industry as a whole is like. 1 week per year is not uncommon. I've been doing this 26 years and have had many dozens of friends laid off during this period, back in 2009, and back during dot com.
        cipheredStones 3y ago
        On a reread, you'll note that I didn't make any claims about what layoffs are like in the industry as a whole: I implied that pay/benefits/conditions tend to be pretty bad in gaming and pretty good in the rest of tech, and I noted that you're wrong to make a universal statement about only high-profile companies giving severance. I don't doubt your experience, and I don't have a survey of industry standards. But I will also say that experiences 14 or 25 years ago are not a reliable guide to HR choices in the 2023 tech industry.
- henry2023 3y ago
  one word. Unionize
  - cableshaft 3y ago
    I'd sign up to unionize, but I wouldn't organize a union myself (I'm not organized enough for that). Haven't even heard a whiff of desires to unionize at any company I've ever worked for.
- sneed_chucker 3y ago
  Game studios are notorious for being the worst places to work as a programmer/engineer in objective terms. I wouldn't take your experience at one to be representative of how termination and severance at US tech companies is usually handled.
mikeyouse 3y ago
Yeah my company had a small RIF recently but it feels so much better for everyone when the severance is generous and the treatment is humane. Laying off people sucks, but knowing they'll have several months of continued income and health insurance makes it suck less. A small startup I worked at shut down and they told us on ~Nov 15th that our pay and benefits would all be ending Dec 1st -- what an absolute nightmare for anyone with bills or a family.
bobthepanda 3y ago
The economy is soul-sucking. Which, I suppose it's mostly been that way, we're just more open now. My friends who have worked with NGOs and nonprofits have all complained that they actually have the worst work-life balance; imagine your middle manager doing normal stereotypical office gaslighting about working longer, harder, not getting commensurate pay etc., but instead it's also tinged with morality and "do it because our mission is so important"
- irrational 3y ago
  Yes, my next door neighbor worked for years at disease foundation non profit and the stories she would tell about management were eye opening.
- tikhonj 3y ago
  Yeah, my sister works at a nonprofit foundation and it sounds like an absolute disaster in terms of awful culture and management :/ I would naively expect non-profits to have more humanizing cultures internally but it's just objectively not the case. If anything it's the opposite, using the mission as cover for absolute cultural rot. And some of the best cultures seem to be at trading firms like Jane Street and TGS which also pay better than the alternatives. Go figure.
- cableshaft 3y ago
  Know a guy who quite working for a non-profit law firm recently for similar reasons. I'd love to work on something I really care about, but it seems like most of those jobs just give management excuses to treat you terribly.
- danjac 3y ago
  I did some pro-bono development work for a nonprofit some time ago. I don't think I have encountered such unpleasant or entitled clients anywhere, whether as an employee or freelancer.
brandall10 3y ago
"our industry has developed a norm of generous severance" That's a specious claim. I'd argue just companies that have brand recognition do.
- lkbm 3y ago
  Yeah, I probably overstated this here. I think it's more common than in most industries, but I don't have stats to determine what the actual "norm" in tech is, or how it compares to elsewhere.
  - brandall10 3y ago
    I’d estimate 9/10 engineers are not getting these packages. But most of those folks likely don’t read HN.
VirusNewbie 3y ago
>(getting laid off any time isn't fun) I know someone who was days from telling their boss about the Apple offer they had accepted who were then given a layoff package. Probably was fun for them to get a ~30k+ 'leaving bonus' when they were planning to anyway. :)
matsemann 3y ago
> I appreciate that our industry has developed a norm of generous severance What if you had unions or proper labor laws that actually guaranteed this? As an European it's weird to see you having to rely on the "kindness" of the company to not get fcked over.
- anonporridge 3y ago
  Then frankly, we would probably fall to level of innovation that modern Europe is known for.
  - piva00 3y ago
    There's much more surrounding the USA's innovation engine than treating employees like shit. Perhaps would be good to look at what's working and what's not instead of just assuming that better protection for workers, which are the ones directly and literally creating the value, would cause a catastrophe. Or please direct me to some literature supporting your opinion. Edit: Page 19 here [0] would directly question your assumption. [0] https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-main-report-global-innovation-index-2023-16th-edition.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-...
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Industry doesn't need slave labour, with people happy for any goodie their feudal lord feels like giving, for innovation.
    - anonporridge 3y ago
      It's not about slave labor, although all job dependent people are wage slaves even in a union. It's about labor market flexibility. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibility.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibilit... Overly strong labor unions make the entire economy less nimble in rapidly changing environments.
      - 3y ago
darth_avocado 3y ago
> our industry has developed a norm of generous severance. I’ve been through this twice in the last two years and let me tell you, this is not the norm. Most companies would pay you only two weeks if it wasn’t for the WARN act. Most companies are paying 2/3 months based on the local laws. For smaller layoffs where the WARN doesn’t apply, they’re barely providing a month of severance. And yes these are the same tech companies.
downWidOutaFite 3y ago
Why do a lot of tech companies give big severances? I don't think other industries do it. It's strangely generous.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Most tech companies don't. Some do. From my limited observations, such packages don't seem more common in the tech sector than any other professional sector. Just a subjective observation, I have zero data to support that.
lbotos 3y ago
> if one says "we let them keep their five-year-old laptop" and another says "we gave them several months severance pay", that will be a factor in my decision. This is a great idea in theory, but do remember that organizations are made up of people, and the decision makers in the past may not be the same decision makers in the future.
glimshe 3y ago
I'm not against more guarantees about severance, but even with the best guarantee you might not have enough money to endure a post-layoff hardship. The best option, that works quite well in most situations, is to have savings to endure at least 6 months of expenses with no income.

by lkbm 3y ago

cableshaft 3y ago

Most I've ever gotten for severance was 1 week pay (and I've been laid off 3 times). And that's even in tech (video game studio). My previous company (a large corporation) did 1 week per year you worked there, capped at 4 weeks (one person I know that was laid off was there for 17 years, only got the 4 weeks). They actually used to be more generous but made significant cuts to their severance benefits shortly before layoffs so they could save a bunch of money on it (they also took away 401k match later, reduced PTO days, eliminated bonuses, froze raises, made our health care benefits worse, let tons of people leave without authorizing filling in gaps so many departments became overworked skeleton crews, all sorts of crap to save money). So at least in that case, it wouldn't have mattered if I asked what their severance policies were while interviewing.

ska 3y ago
There is a point in the company size (in some metric) vs. job responsibility curve where you can successfully make contract changes, within reason. One thing you should absolutely consider is pushing for a specific severance clause. This serves two purposes, an indication of their seriousness about your position, and some peace of mind (e.g. have 6/12 months or whatever in your pocket). That being said, there are scenarios where you won't see a penny of it. Also, depending on your jurisdiction and job tenure, you may have a very viable claim for more severance. Nobody is likely to offer you more than statutory (or whatever is in your contract) without asking, but it may be worth paying a lawyer hour or so to find out properly.
cipheredStones 3y ago
> And that's even in tech (video game studio). Given everything I've ever heard about working conditions, pay, and benefits in video game studios, it seems more appropriate to think of them as opposite to the mainstream software industry rather than a part of it.
- brandall10 3y ago
  The vast majority of layoffs in tech (not 'big tech' or name brand companies) is likely closer to 1 week than 16 weeks. Sorry to be contrarian, but the only companies that do these bigger packages are doing it because it will be in the news.
  - cipheredStones 3y ago
    If you're making a universal claim like that, you are just being contrarian. My last job was at a Series C startup that you've probably never heard of, and when they had to lay off 2/3rds of their employees in late 2020 due to the pandemic, they gave a couple months of severance (don't remember the exact amount, I wasn't laid off) + extended COBRA coverage.
    - brandall10 3y ago
      Still is a series C startup that almost certainly is trying to keep its brand intact up rehire after the uncertainty dissipated. I think you're being unrealistic as to what the industry as a whole is like. 1 week per year is not uncommon. I've been doing this 26 years and have had many dozens of friends laid off during this period, back in 2009, and back during dot com.
      - cipheredStones 3y ago
        On a reread, you'll note that I didn't make any claims about what layoffs are like in the industry as a whole: I implied that pay/benefits/conditions tend to be pretty bad in gaming and pretty good in the rest of tech, and I noted that you're wrong to make a universal statement about only high-profile companies giving severance. I don't doubt your experience, and I don't have a survey of industry standards. But I will also say that experiences 14 or 25 years ago are not a reliable guide to HR choices in the 2023 tech industry.
henry2023 3y ago
one word. Unionize
- cableshaft 3y ago
  I'd sign up to unionize, but I wouldn't organize a union myself (I'm not organized enough for that). Haven't even heard a whiff of desires to unionize at any company I've ever worked for.
sneed_chucker 3y ago
Game studios are notorious for being the worst places to work as a programmer/engineer in objective terms. I wouldn't take your experience at one to be representative of how termination and severance at US tech companies is usually handled.

mikeyouse 3y ago

Yeah my company had a small RIF recently but it feels so much better for everyone when the severance is generous and the treatment is humane. Laying off people sucks, but knowing they'll have several months of continued income and health insurance makes it suck less. A small startup I worked at shut down and they told us on ~Nov 15th that our pay and benefits would all be ending Dec 1st -- what an absolute nightmare for anyone with bills or a family.

bobthepanda 3y ago

The economy is soul-sucking. Which, I suppose it's mostly been that way, we're just more open now. My friends who have worked with NGOs and nonprofits have all complained that they actually have the worst work-life balance; imagine your middle manager doing normal stereotypical office gaslighting about working longer, harder, not getting commensurate pay etc., but instead it's also tinged with morality and "do it because our mission is so important"

irrational 3y ago
Yes, my next door neighbor worked for years at disease foundation non profit and the stories she would tell about management were eye opening.
tikhonj 3y ago
Yeah, my sister works at a nonprofit foundation and it sounds like an absolute disaster in terms of awful culture and management :/ I would naively expect non-profits to have more humanizing cultures internally but it's just objectively not the case. If anything it's the opposite, using the mission as cover for absolute cultural rot. And some of the best cultures seem to be at trading firms like Jane Street and TGS which also pay better than the alternatives. Go figure.
cableshaft 3y ago
Know a guy who quite working for a non-profit law firm recently for similar reasons. I'd love to work on something I really care about, but it seems like most of those jobs just give management excuses to treat you terribly.
danjac 3y ago
I did some pro-bono development work for a nonprofit some time ago. I don't think I have encountered such unpleasant or entitled clients anywhere, whether as an employee or freelancer.

brandall10 3y ago

"our industry has developed a norm of generous severance" That's a specious claim. I'd argue just companies that have brand recognition do.

lkbm 3y ago
Yeah, I probably overstated this here. I think it's more common than in most industries, but I don't have stats to determine what the actual "norm" in tech is, or how it compares to elsewhere.
- brandall10 3y ago
  I’d estimate 9/10 engineers are not getting these packages. But most of those folks likely don’t read HN.

VirusNewbie 3y ago

>(getting laid off any time isn't fun) I know someone who was days from telling their boss about the Apple offer they had accepted who were then given a layoff package. Probably was fun for them to get a ~30k+ 'leaving bonus' when they were planning to anyway. :)

matsemann 3y ago

> I appreciate that our industry has developed a norm of generous severance What if you had unions or proper labor laws that actually guaranteed this? As an European it's weird to see you having to rely on the "kindness" of the company to not get fcked over.

anonporridge 3y ago
Then frankly, we would probably fall to level of innovation that modern Europe is known for.
- piva00 3y ago
  There's much more surrounding the USA's innovation engine than treating employees like shit. Perhaps would be good to look at what's working and what's not instead of just assuming that better protection for workers, which are the ones directly and literally creating the value, would cause a catastrophe. Or please direct me to some literature supporting your opinion. Edit: Page 19 here [0] would directly question your assumption. [0] https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-main-report-global-innovation-index-2023-16th-edition.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo-pub-2000-2023-en-...
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Industry doesn't need slave labour, with people happy for any goodie their feudal lord feels like giving, for innovation.
  - anonporridge 3y ago
    It's not about slave labor, although all job dependent people are wage slaves even in a union. It's about labor market flexibility. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibility.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market-flexibilit... Overly strong labor unions make the entire economy less nimble in rapidly changing environments.
    - 3y ago

darth_avocado 3y ago

> our industry has developed a norm of generous severance. I’ve been through this twice in the last two years and let me tell you, this is not the norm. Most companies would pay you only two weeks if it wasn’t for the WARN act. Most companies are paying 2/3 months based on the local laws. For smaller layoffs where the WARN doesn’t apply, they’re barely providing a month of severance. And yes these are the same tech companies.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago

Why do a lot of tech companies give big severances? I don't think other industries do it. It's strangely generous.

JohnFen 3y ago
Most tech companies don't. Some do. From my limited observations, such packages don't seem more common in the tech sector than any other professional sector. Just a subjective observation, I have zero data to support that.

lbotos 3y ago

> if one says "we let them keep their five-year-old laptop" and another says "we gave them several months severance pay", that will be a factor in my decision. This is a great idea in theory, but do remember that organizations are made up of people, and the decision makers in the past may not be the same decision makers in the future.

glimshe 3y ago

I'm not against more guarantees about severance, but even with the best guarantee you might not have enough money to endure a post-layoff hardship. The best option, that works quite well in most situations, is to have savings to endure at least 6 months of expenses with no income.