4 ms·

The last couple of months I had to eat out frequently, so I experienced all sorts of dark patterns in tipping. There are two which I found almost everywhere -

by malshe 3y ago

The last couple of months I had to eat out frequently, so I experienced all sorts of dark patterns in tipping. There are two which I found almost everywhere - 1. The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25%. There is a small button at the bottom to select "Other" amount. You click that because you want to pay maybe 15%. But then it brings up an input box for the precise amount of the tip you want to pay. Unless you already know this amount, your options are awkwardly calculate the tip while the server is impatiently watching you or suck it up and go back to the default tipping menu. In many of these restaurants the server brought the bill and asked for the payment at the same time so I had no time to pre-calculate the tip. 2. In almost all the restaurants, the device tacked on the tip on post sales tax amount. In Texas the sales tax is 8.25%. So a 20% tip ends up being roughly 22%. Sure, the few extra dollars don't make a dent in my finances. It is not the spending that hurts, it is the feeling of getting manipulated in real time that kills me.

mock-possum 3y ago
> the server is impatiently watching you yyeeaahh but that's not really my problem though you've got to keep in mind, this approach to tipping is the employer setting the customer against the employee - the employee might think you're their foe, but the truth is, it's both of you against their bosses. they can be pissy about it all they like, but you don't have to be responsible for their lack of perspective, and you definitely don't have to cave to peer pressure. if anything, you should be very very suspicious of situations where you're pressured to pay, period.
j7ake 3y ago
Just write zero as a protest for the dark patterns. Zero is common in many countries outside of USA by the way. In California and other states you cannot claim workers are being paid below minimum wage.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- catchnear4321 3y ago
  that’s right, stick it to the minimum wage worker for the employer’s (or likely corporate’s) decision in payment processing platform. keep going to the businesses, of course. you still want your tendies.
  - redserk 3y ago
    At a certain point "take the ball and go home" becomes the rational decision if a player in the game isn't being treated fairly. In this case, tipping zero becomes the simplest option. Tips encourage artificial menu pricing, which disguises the intended price of a service. Customers are being socially pressured into tipping more than they otherwise would want to. Social pressure is not a fair mechanism in a market. Another pattern is where servers are expecting 20% tips in addition to 5-10% "Employee Healthcare/Benefits/Wage" Surcharges. Sure, health insurance is a critical need but that should be baked into the price of the food being sold. Patrons are then pressured to effectively give a total 25-30% for service, in addition to the advertised price of food. Insane. Sorry that servers are caught in the cross-fire on this but their employers decided to use them as fodder.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      "Take the ball and go home" in this case would be cancel the order and leave. Stiffing the staff is... another thing.
      - redserk 3y ago
        Why is "stiffing the staff" bad but surprise pricing to customers is tolerable? If the pricing practices are disclosed up front, yeah that's clearly stiffing the staff, but that's simply not the case here. I'm referring to the game where you're lured into a service with an ambiguous ruleset for pricing. The pricing rules aren't disclosed until it is time to pay. When it is time to pay, you're now given an increasingly difficult puzzle to solve in order to tip what you intend to, without manipulation. Expecting anyone to solve this puzzle is unreasonable.
- Kaibeezy 3y ago
  I’m uncomfortable with tipping zero, knowing how servers are paid in the US. But it also seems wrong to tie the tip to the price, when the work is comparable. I’m going to think about an alternative minimum tip, maybe something like: - $1 per item for a takeout counter - $5 per person at sit down service - $10 for an average delivery If everyone did that, a couple of things would happen: - servers would have to push for higher pay - restaurants and bars would raise their prices The advantage is this would be predictable and understandable for everyone. In Europe and elsewhere, reasonable pay is assumed, and you tip rarely for exceptional service. That’s really where things need to go.
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    We're all uncomfortable, but including the wait staff. It will never change unless someone does.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      If the only thing you can do is simply stiff the waiter unfortunate enough to be working your table today maybe the change isn't yours to make.
      - maerF0x0 3y ago
        I 100% agree that simply not tipping, and not doing additional avenues of change (such as intentionally patronizing restaurants which are no-tip / living wage), then really the root might actually be greed/selfishness.
  - safety1st 3y ago
    I mean, everyone knows that tipping culture in the US has become unhealthy (it probably always was). Many many people would prefer to end it. The only way tipping is going to end, is if people stop doing it. There's not going to be some higher authority who one day says "OK now it's socially acceptable and no one's going to be upset if you stop, the world will get better, no friction required." You have to stop, tell the business why you're stopping, and tell other people to stop.
- malshe 3y ago
  I will try inputting 0 and then pay in cash next time. I don't want to punish the servers.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I usually give tips in cash anyway so that the server doesn't have to share it with their boss or declare it.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      Servers sharing tips with management is illegal in the United States at the federal level, and can and should be reported to the appropriate labor protections board. In California, that's the California Labor Commissioner's Office, every state has their own.
      - hydrok9 3y ago
        that's fantastic. in Manitoba tips are legally the property of the store owner and they do not have to share them at all if they don't want to.
      - teeray 3y ago
        Meanwhile, the boss still has their hand in the tip jar until a formal inquiry can get started and completed. Maybe in a year or so they’ll rule in favor of the employee and the employer will have to pay up… eventually. In the meantime, the employees still have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Even though something like that is illegal, our current system often denies justice by delaying it.
colejohnson66 3y ago
In addition to the constant barrage of tip requests, the percentages keep going up (tipflation). My dad taught me over a decade ago that you tip 10-15% based on service. A few years ago, it became 15-20%, then 18-22%, and now we're expected to tip 20-25%, and at more places than before. I'm not opposed to helping people out with tips (it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage), but when companies are making record profits by jacking up prices and gimping on paying their workers more, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
- gooseyman 3y ago
  Tipflation is a good way to put it. The menu prices/product prices DO adjust to inflation. They aren't in perfect lockstep sure, but the restaurant/biz needs cost covered/some margin to stay in business. In theory, 15% 30 years ago is the same 15% in 2023.
- brk 3y ago
  >it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage To be fair, it kind of is. There are other job opportunities for people.
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    It's neither the wait staff, nor the business. It's market forces. Wait staff are becoming increasingly unskilled labor (partly due to technology in restaurants, partly because wait some staff have become shitty/belligerent and people realized they don't actually care if someone calls them "honey", it's not worth $20 of tips to them...) I'll happily take my meal with a "go f yourself" it it means i get $20 off.
    - moritzwarhier 3y ago
      This, I'm also trying to learn say no Especially in places where there's not even real service (e.g. having to dispose of dishes yourself etc) But at the end, it is a structural problem. If the job can't pay a minimum to live a normal life, then the business should be restructured to allow fewer but better jobs, in my view.
Chris2048 3y ago
I only tip in cash, so just put in zero.
- malshe 3y ago
  I might try that next time
instagib 3y ago
Two bonuses to this are the check round trip time is less and the server doesn’t have private access to your card to clone it. Cash eliminates both and I saw one group use it to avoid the automatic added on gratuity for bad service.
DeathArrow 3y ago
>The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25% That would be the last time I eat there. And I wouldn't blame the waiter but the manager. The wage should be very low if they resort to such patterns in order for personnel to not leave them. If I pay for my food, why doesn't he pay his employees?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kkielhofner 3y ago
As another example somewhat reflective of a position of privilege this just pushes me further and further towards "fine dining". In daily life I cook simple and (extremely) healthy meals at home. Even with the increasing price of groceries this can be accomplished at very low cost. I've never tabulated it but my total grocery spend is likely somewhere in the range of a few hundred dollars/mo (max). I've always been taught to see eating out as a luxury. An event that should be enjoyed and experienced as such - not a daily thing. When my social circle and I eat out it almost always feels like a celebration (or actually is) and between this approach and our overall financial status we have little (if any) price sensitivity. This happens a couple of times a month on average, with the occasional quick lunch being at what are probably best described as "fast casual" restaurants where you prepare yourself to deal with stuff like this and can tap some tip amount, eat to survive, and just get out of there. It's much easier to accept when it's not a daily shake down. In all of the establishments we patronize you get professional, extremely polished, and highly skilled wait staff - what I refer to as "six figure servers". The overall experience is night and day from the moment you walk in and these establishments will never deploy these methods because they know you're there largely for the experience - the total package. Something like this completely ruins it at a key point in time (the end of the meal). In the US at least (at these establishments) getting handed a terminal with a series of hustles, bad UX, etc would completely ruin the impression and overall "feel" of the business. I wouldn't come back to such a place and I doubt many (or any) of their target customers would. While you still hear horror stories of bad tippers at these establishments more often than not the experience is so professional and of such high quality (incredible) we find ourselves tipping 25% MINIMUM - which on a meal at least $100/person means a server on a decent night is walking out with at least $1000. 2-3 "good nights" a week (50 weeks) is $150k/yr gross. Throw in a few occasional large parties and/or big spenders (wine, etc) and they are often looking at $1k-$2k (or more) in tips per table. Even when split with other members of staff everyone is well beyond minimum or even living wage. I much prefer spending ~$500/mo eating out a couple of times at very high quality restaurants vs eating out a couple of times a week and dealing with stupid stuff like this. You learn to actually appreciate it vs being some routine and mundane thing and you end up with the kinds of experiences that with memory only get better with time. My friends and I frequently recall specific meals (which are truly events) and talk about them years later. Well worth it and everyone comes out further ahead. The sit down "terminal hustle" places need to exist for a variety of reasons but my friends and I aren't spending our money there.
figassis 3y ago
When I'm confused, I kill no braincells, I tip 10%, so I just move the decimal and done. If I'm annoyed, I tip $0. I think in the US most people don't have a frame of reference of what it's like to not have this social pressure to tip. You feel much better when you tip without being forced. Also, as a foreigner, American workers and businesses have no idea how vexing it is for a tourist to land, have a budget and realize that they're 30% short because of tipping everything from expensive Uber rides to hotels and luxury spas. This is basically the US tourist tax, even though all our money is going to already stay there. There a probably quite a few uber drivers that hate me now, because they try to give me the all star ride, have a conversation, hear all my compliments (bc they keep nagging if everything is to my liking, if I want music or the AC adjusted), and then get zero tip. I absolutely do not feel an ounce of remorse. Why? Because I have also come to understand that they're not really providing quality service because they care. They're all gaming the system and manipulating customers. here's an example: I once needed an Uber from NJ to NYC, urgently. One quickly responded, arrived, started chatting and being friendly, started the trip and after I loaded all my stuff into the car, she looked at the destination and told me they would not drive to NYC, that I should get out. She left and did not cancel the trip. I had to contact Uber to get refunded. My point is, the 5 star friendliness ended the second I stopped being profitable for her, and at that point I stopped mattering. So yeah, smile away, no tips unless I am wowed beyond my expectations.

by malshe 3y ago

mock-possum 3y ago

> the server is impatiently watching you yyeeaahh but that's not really my problem though you've got to keep in mind, this approach to tipping is the employer setting the customer against the employee - the employee might think you're their foe, but the truth is, it's both of you against their bosses. they can be pissy about it all they like, but you don't have to be responsible for their lack of perspective, and you definitely don't have to cave to peer pressure. if anything, you should be very very suspicious of situations where you're pressured to pay, period.

j7ake 3y ago

Just write zero as a protest for the dark patterns. Zero is common in many countries outside of USA by the way. In California and other states you cannot claim workers are being paid below minimum wage.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
catchnear4321 3y ago
that’s right, stick it to the minimum wage worker for the employer’s (or likely corporate’s) decision in payment processing platform. keep going to the businesses, of course. you still want your tendies.
- redserk 3y ago
  At a certain point "take the ball and go home" becomes the rational decision if a player in the game isn't being treated fairly. In this case, tipping zero becomes the simplest option. Tips encourage artificial menu pricing, which disguises the intended price of a service. Customers are being socially pressured into tipping more than they otherwise would want to. Social pressure is not a fair mechanism in a market. Another pattern is where servers are expecting 20% tips in addition to 5-10% "Employee Healthcare/Benefits/Wage" Surcharges. Sure, health insurance is a critical need but that should be baked into the price of the food being sold. Patrons are then pressured to effectively give a total 25-30% for service, in addition to the advertised price of food. Insane. Sorry that servers are caught in the cross-fire on this but their employers decided to use them as fodder.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    "Take the ball and go home" in this case would be cancel the order and leave. Stiffing the staff is... another thing.
    - redserk 3y ago
      Why is "stiffing the staff" bad but surprise pricing to customers is tolerable? If the pricing practices are disclosed up front, yeah that's clearly stiffing the staff, but that's simply not the case here. I'm referring to the game where you're lured into a service with an ambiguous ruleset for pricing. The pricing rules aren't disclosed until it is time to pay. When it is time to pay, you're now given an increasingly difficult puzzle to solve in order to tip what you intend to, without manipulation. Expecting anyone to solve this puzzle is unreasonable.
Kaibeezy 3y ago
I’m uncomfortable with tipping zero, knowing how servers are paid in the US. But it also seems wrong to tie the tip to the price, when the work is comparable. I’m going to think about an alternative minimum tip, maybe something like: - $1 per item for a takeout counter - $5 per person at sit down service - $10 for an average delivery If everyone did that, a couple of things would happen: - servers would have to push for higher pay - restaurants and bars would raise their prices The advantage is this would be predictable and understandable for everyone. In Europe and elsewhere, reasonable pay is assumed, and you tip rarely for exceptional service. That’s really where things need to go.
- maerF0x0 3y ago
  We're all uncomfortable, but including the wait staff. It will never change unless someone does.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    If the only thing you can do is simply stiff the waiter unfortunate enough to be working your table today maybe the change isn't yours to make.
    - maerF0x0 3y ago
      I 100% agree that simply not tipping, and not doing additional avenues of change (such as intentionally patronizing restaurants which are no-tip / living wage), then really the root might actually be greed/selfishness.
- safety1st 3y ago
  I mean, everyone knows that tipping culture in the US has become unhealthy (it probably always was). Many many people would prefer to end it. The only way tipping is going to end, is if people stop doing it. There's not going to be some higher authority who one day says "OK now it's socially acceptable and no one's going to be upset if you stop, the world will get better, no friction required." You have to stop, tell the business why you're stopping, and tell other people to stop.
malshe 3y ago
I will try inputting 0 and then pay in cash next time. I don't want to punish the servers.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I usually give tips in cash anyway so that the server doesn't have to share it with their boss or declare it.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Servers sharing tips with management is illegal in the United States at the federal level, and can and should be reported to the appropriate labor protections board. In California, that's the California Labor Commissioner's Office, every state has their own.
    - hydrok9 3y ago
      that's fantastic. in Manitoba tips are legally the property of the store owner and they do not have to share them at all if they don't want to.
    - teeray 3y ago
      Meanwhile, the boss still has their hand in the tip jar until a formal inquiry can get started and completed. Maybe in a year or so they’ll rule in favor of the employee and the employer will have to pay up… eventually. In the meantime, the employees still have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Even though something like that is illegal, our current system often denies justice by delaying it.

colejohnson66 3y ago

In addition to the constant barrage of tip requests, the percentages keep going up (tipflation). My dad taught me over a decade ago that you tip 10-15% based on service. A few years ago, it became 15-20%, then 18-22%, and now we're expected to tip 20-25%, and at more places than before. I'm not opposed to helping people out with tips (it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage), but when companies are making record profits by jacking up prices and gimping on paying their workers more, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

gooseyman 3y ago
Tipflation is a good way to put it. The menu prices/product prices DO adjust to inflation. They aren't in perfect lockstep sure, but the restaurant/biz needs cost covered/some margin to stay in business. In theory, 15% 30 years ago is the same 15% in 2023.
brk 3y ago
>it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage To be fair, it kind of is. There are other job opportunities for people.
- maerF0x0 3y ago
  It's neither the wait staff, nor the business. It's market forces. Wait staff are becoming increasingly unskilled labor (partly due to technology in restaurants, partly because wait some staff have become shitty/belligerent and people realized they don't actually care if someone calls them "honey", it's not worth $20 of tips to them...) I'll happily take my meal with a "go f yourself" it it means i get $20 off.
  - moritzwarhier 3y ago
    This, I'm also trying to learn say no Especially in places where there's not even real service (e.g. having to dispose of dishes yourself etc) But at the end, it is a structural problem. If the job can't pay a minimum to live a normal life, then the business should be restructured to allow fewer but better jobs, in my view.

Chris2048 3y ago

I only tip in cash, so just put in zero.

malshe 3y ago
I might try that next time

instagib 3y ago

Two bonuses to this are the check round trip time is less and the server doesn’t have private access to your card to clone it. Cash eliminates both and I saw one group use it to avoid the automatic added on gratuity for bad service.

DeathArrow 3y ago

>The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25% That would be the last time I eat there. And I wouldn't blame the waiter but the manager. The wage should be very low if they resort to such patterns in order for personnel to not leave them. If I pay for my food, why doesn't he pay his employees?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

kkielhofner 3y ago

As another example somewhat reflective of a position of privilege this just pushes me further and further towards "fine dining". In daily life I cook simple and (extremely) healthy meals at home. Even with the increasing price of groceries this can be accomplished at very low cost. I've never tabulated it but my total grocery spend is likely somewhere in the range of a few hundred dollars/mo (max). I've always been taught to see eating out as a luxury. An event that should be enjoyed and experienced as such - not a daily thing. When my social circle and I eat out it almost always feels like a celebration (or actually is) and between this approach and our overall financial status we have little (if any) price sensitivity. This happens a couple of times a month on average, with the occasional quick lunch being at what are probably best described as "fast casual" restaurants where you prepare yourself to deal with stuff like this and can tap some tip amount, eat to survive, and just get out of there. It's much easier to accept when it's not a daily shake down. In all of the establishments we patronize you get professional, extremely polished, and highly skilled wait staff - what I refer to as "six figure servers". The overall experience is night and day from the moment you walk in and these establishments will never deploy these methods because they know you're there largely for the experience - the total package. Something like this completely ruins it at a key point in time (the end of the meal). In the US at least (at these establishments) getting handed a terminal with a series of hustles, bad UX, etc would completely ruin the impression and overall "feel" of the business. I wouldn't come back to such a place and I doubt many (or any) of their target customers would. While you still hear horror stories of bad tippers at these establishments more often than not the experience is so professional and of such high quality (incredible) we find ourselves tipping 25% MINIMUM - which on a meal at least $100/person means a server on a decent night is walking out with at least $1000. 2-3 "good nights" a week (50 weeks) is $150k/yr gross. Throw in a few occasional large parties and/or big spenders (wine, etc) and they are often looking at $1k-$2k (or more) in tips per table. Even when split with other members of staff everyone is well beyond minimum or even living wage. I much prefer spending ~$500/mo eating out a couple of times at very high quality restaurants vs eating out a couple of times a week and dealing with stupid stuff like this. You learn to actually appreciate it vs being some routine and mundane thing and you end up with the kinds of experiences that with memory only get better with time. My friends and I frequently recall specific meals (which are truly events) and talk about them years later. Well worth it and everyone comes out further ahead. The sit down "terminal hustle" places need to exist for a variety of reasons but my friends and I aren't spending our money there.

figassis 3y ago

When I'm confused, I kill no braincells, I tip 10%, so I just move the decimal and done. If I'm annoyed, I tip $0. I think in the US most people don't have a frame of reference of what it's like to not have this social pressure to tip. You feel much better when you tip without being forced. Also, as a foreigner, American workers and businesses have no idea how vexing it is for a tourist to land, have a budget and realize that they're 30% short because of tipping everything from expensive Uber rides to hotels and luxury spas. This is basically the US tourist tax, even though all our money is going to already stay there. There a probably quite a few uber drivers that hate me now, because they try to give me the all star ride, have a conversation, hear all my compliments (bc they keep nagging if everything is to my liking, if I want music or the AC adjusted), and then get zero tip. I absolutely do not feel an ounce of remorse. Why? Because I have also come to understand that they're not really providing quality service because they care. They're all gaming the system and manipulating customers. here's an example: I once needed an Uber from NJ to NYC, urgently. One quickly responded, arrived, started chatting and being friendly, started the trip and after I loaded all my stuff into the car, she looked at the destination and told me they would not drive to NYC, that I should get out. She left and did not cancel the trip. I had to contact Uber to get refunded. My point is, the 5 star friendliness ended the second I stopped being profitable for her, and at that point I stopped mattering. So yeah, smile away, no tips unless I am wowed beyond my expectations.