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> They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is ava

> They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is available, even if not yet as broadly (cue chicken and egg), lots of such extra third-party tooling makes one's infrastructure dependent by many more projects than required, each adding complexity and reducing reliability. But as said, this is a complaint for the third-party tooling provider. > they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud... Yeah, we certainly did not forget that and cater that group extensively already. But currently the ones that use PVE or PBS are the ones favoring independence, i.e., FOSS and projects that only have to answer to their user, but no profit optimization machine, either by being bitten way to often by such changes already or understood early enough that having core infra on a proprietary platform including any 3rd party tooling is rather reckless for the long term (cue at this thread). > Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not) s/ProxMox/Proxmox VE/ There's no upper case m, and Proxmox is the company, the actual products are Proxmox Virtual Environment (PVE), Proxmox Backup Server (PBS), Proxmox Mail Gateway (PMG), etc. But, let's actually comment your points: > * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly) AWS wasn't in our scope, but we can add any target that has an actual open specification, i.e., not requiring a deal with the devil that would force us to do a low quality hidden proprietary implementation. > * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption We sure have that since decades, we use the QEMU Guest Agent to bring the guest, and applications like DBs into a safe state by issuing a freeze/thaw command when creating the dirty-bitmap. > * Continuous Replication Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS. > * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports Wasn't done with PBS <-> PVE di > * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files Yes, PBS has a content addressable storage with great deduplication and compression. > * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this) This is indeed lacking, but we're working on it, I'd think we have something read until mid of 2024. > * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks Not sure what you mean here exactly.. > * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done... > * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups You can use the CLI client already, but yeah it should get some UX improvements for making that nicer OOTB. > * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support This is supported since years by Proxmox Backup Server. Sorry, but at this point I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated? > * Immutable backups repository The PBS allows that too, we have explicit permission rights that can only add backups, never remove, plus on sync to off-site one can also disable any pruning, those features and our tape support makes it easy to have ransomware protected backups. > Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced As most your points above are already supported I'd take 1.5x at best, but thanks for your feedback, some of it was quite valuable.

phpisthebest 3y ago
The problem here is what you think "supported" means for example >We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done. So you have a web portal where a Help Desk Tech can take a user request for a file to be restored back to a vm, open a web portal search for the indivual file then either download that file and email it to the user, or restore it back to the VM, or restore it to a completely different VM depending on the use case??? Veeam Does >>Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS. Sure you can do it that why, but veeam has support for this in their product, in the UI that is already part of my work flow, this is what I consider a "OS Level or Storage level hack" it is not really part of Proxmox, but part of the underlying linux OS or Storage solution. >>Builtin Support for Block Replication Veeam use ReFS or XFS to only store one version of a block no matter how many backups are taken, this is done in the veeam software and works with their VBK file format. ZFS has some dedup which is what proxmox relies on but it works differently than Veeam, and seems to be less effective. These Block Cloning also works with the Data Format uploaded to S3 to massively save on storage costs >> I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated? About 3 years ago... Have you ever used Veeam? I have been using Veeam since version 9.5, and hold a VMCE certification
- tlamponi 3y ago
  > So you have a web portal where a Help Desk Tech can take a user request for a file to be restored back to a vm, open a web portal search for the indivual file then either download that file and email it to the user, or restore it back to the VM, or restore it to a completely different VM depending on the use case??? There's a web portal that can be used for that, both inside PVE and PBS. Download to inside a VM is possible. It surely isn't as integrated/polished, but that it's just not possible is far from true either. We're polishing release for release, most of those things are not complicated, but need a bit of time. > Sure you can do it that why, but veeam has support for this in their product, in the UI that is already part of my work flow, this is what I consider a "OS Level or Storage level hack" it is not really part of Proxmox, but part of the underlying linux OS or Storage solution. Yeah, replication is built-in to Proxmox VE's UI/workflow/API whatever too... > Veeam use ReFS or XFS to only store one version of a block no matter how many backups are taken, this is done in the veeam software and works with their VBK file format. ZFS has some dedup which is what proxmox relies on but it works differently than Veeam, and seems to be less effective. These Block Cloning also works with the Data Format uploaded to S3 to massively save on storage costs. Yeah no, that's complete BS, we nowhere rely on ZFS dedup at any point, that would be completely useless for PBS... We have our own content addressable storage, as, again, already mentioned, and thus refer to every block only once, no matter how many backups taken. > Have you ever used Veeam? I have been using Veeam since version 9.5, and hold a VMCE certification. Yeah, but I hold no certification and left basically all proprietary EEE/blackmail software for good since years, thus luckily do not even need to start think about such "migrate or get squeezed big time" situations for any infra of mine. But sure, use Veeam, that's totally fine, and it is very well integrated quality software, but for a lot of setups PBS is way more than enough to cover their use cases. And this thread actually started of with Proxmox VE, so just tell Veeam you want to use their software for PVE, I'm to close to this so cannot say anything, but they surely got wind of those changes coming to VMWare and surely hedge against the doom Broadcom will bring, what do you think they'd do? ;-) Anyhow, I wish you all the best in your future migrations and hope you find a solution that fits your needs and workflows without being held hostage by your core infra provider.

phpisthebest 3y ago

The problem here is what you think "supported" means for example >We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done. So you have a web portal where a Help Desk Tech can take a user request for a file to be restored back to a vm, open a web portal search for the indivual file then either download that file and email it to the user, or restore it back to the VM, or restore it to a completely different VM depending on the use case??? Veeam Does >>Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS. Sure you can do it that why, but veeam has support for this in their product, in the UI that is already part of my work flow, this is what I consider a "OS Level or Storage level hack" it is not really part of Proxmox, but part of the underlying linux OS or Storage solution. >>Builtin Support for Block Replication Veeam use ReFS or XFS to only store one version of a block no matter how many backups are taken, this is done in the veeam software and works with their VBK file format. ZFS has some dedup which is what proxmox relies on but it works differently than Veeam, and seems to be less effective. These Block Cloning also works with the Data Format uploaded to S3 to massively save on storage costs >> I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated? About 3 years ago... Have you ever used Veeam? I have been using Veeam since version 9.5, and hold a VMCE certification

tlamponi 3y ago
> So you have a web portal where a Help Desk Tech can take a user request for a file to be restored back to a vm, open a web portal search for the indivual file then either download that file and email it to the user, or restore it back to the VM, or restore it to a completely different VM depending on the use case??? There's a web portal that can be used for that, both inside PVE and PBS. Download to inside a VM is possible. It surely isn't as integrated/polished, but that it's just not possible is far from true either. We're polishing release for release, most of those things are not complicated, but need a bit of time. > Sure you can do it that why, but veeam has support for this in their product, in the UI that is already part of my work flow, this is what I consider a "OS Level or Storage level hack" it is not really part of Proxmox, but part of the underlying linux OS or Storage solution. Yeah, replication is built-in to Proxmox VE's UI/workflow/API whatever too... > Veeam use ReFS or XFS to only store one version of a block no matter how many backups are taken, this is done in the veeam software and works with their VBK file format. ZFS has some dedup which is what proxmox relies on but it works differently than Veeam, and seems to be less effective. These Block Cloning also works with the Data Format uploaded to S3 to massively save on storage costs. Yeah no, that's complete BS, we nowhere rely on ZFS dedup at any point, that would be completely useless for PBS... We have our own content addressable storage, as, again, already mentioned, and thus refer to every block only once, no matter how many backups taken. > Have you ever used Veeam? I have been using Veeam since version 9.5, and hold a VMCE certification. Yeah, but I hold no certification and left basically all proprietary EEE/blackmail software for good since years, thus luckily do not even need to start think about such "migrate or get squeezed big time" situations for any infra of mine. But sure, use Veeam, that's totally fine, and it is very well integrated quality software, but for a lot of setups PBS is way more than enough to cover their use cases. And this thread actually started of with Proxmox VE, so just tell Veeam you want to use their software for PVE, I'm to close to this so cannot say anything, but they surely got wind of those changes coming to VMWare and surely hedge against the doom Broadcom will bring, what do you think they'd do? ;-) Anyhow, I wish you all the best in your future migrations and hope you find a solution that fits your needs and workflows without being held hostage by your core infra provider.