4 ms·

Vertical farming is a nice PoC but it’s not financially viable when there is ample land for farming. Indoor Automation for leafy greens and some high value pro

by mc32 3y ago

Vertical farming is a nice PoC but it’s not financially viable when there is ample land for farming. Indoor Automation for leafy greens and some high value produce like edible/gastronomic mushrooms and others like controlled drug producing products does make economic sense, but it’s overkill for other things when you have proven transportation networks to bring things to market from the hinterlands. Ok it may make sense in st Helena and Tristan da Cunha islands for some things.

bell-cot 3y ago
> it’s not financially viable when there is ample land for farming. I've not heard of it being financially viable even when farmland is very constrained - say, in Holland. The numbers probably work on the ISS, Moon, or Mars...so those places will probably be "stars of the show", in the next round of hype which vertical farming companies use to bilk idiot VC's. (St. Helena has a reasonable latitude and low population density - so at most you'd need some greenhouses.)
- romanovcode 3y ago
  Right, I agree about Holland. Same would apply to Belgium or Luxembourg. But what about 90% of the countries that do not have this problem? Everything east of France is just fields and fields of nothing.
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    That's not true. There are lot of forests and mountains. To get to nothing you have to go all the way to Ukraine. It is relatively featureless south and east of Kyiv.
- lightedman 3y ago
  Most of the big hydroponic cannabis growers here in SoCal use vertical farms for sea of green operations. Financially-viable? Those people rake in MILLIONS yearly. Those systems consume very little in the way of resources, with tightly-controlled NFT hydroponic application and targeted-spectrum LED lighting running the show.
  - mc32 3y ago
    We accounted for high margin things like drug producing plants and high value gastronomic things like mushrooms and leafy greens. These are the only viable crops and are exceptional, not normal. This is like saying mice are a desirable pest because drug labs use them for research. Yes, sure but it’s a very specific use case, but don’t pretend it’s the norm.
    - lightedman 3y ago
      "These are the only viable crops and are exceptional, not normal." No, they are not the only viable crops. I'll guarantee your studies don't take into account various methods of hydroponics for various crop types. Almost every study I've ever seen is purely focused on NFT vertical farming. NO JOKE it doesn't cover everything. You aren't growing corn in an NFT system. You will do it in a vertical DWC system. I took ag/hort-sci in high school, where I learned about these systems (hanging gardens of Babylon, anyone?) I was running vertical farming systems in the 90s in high school. The tech works. Learn which method of hydroponics is required for which crop. Plan your economic requirements. Literally basic high school education requirements and most of you don't seem to get it. not sure what happened between the 90s and now for y'all to mess up basic technology so badly.
  - civilitty 3y ago
    > Those systems consume very little in the way of resources Since when is electricity not a resource? Unlike cannabis, you can’t sell tomatoes for $2,000 a pound.
    - lightedman 3y ago
      In a small footprint you need drastically-lower energy requirements. Also, with the advent of LED lighting, you use even less in atmospheric regulation, which becomes the major power-saver outside of the lighting itself. Also, the trick to vertical tomatoes is not what most people expect. They should look more into the upside-down pot idea and think about how best to take advantage of a top-down hanging system, like near-360 degree lighting between rows of hanging tomato plants to maximize exposure along the entire length of the curtain. These can be mounted horizontally under the nft channels the hanging plants grow from, allowing them to receive all the light they want while leaving walkway space (and overhead human-vision lighting space.) It takes a LOT of research to make things work and everyone just promises a turn-key system. THAT can't work. My systems work because of research and lots of first-principles thinking.
- zajio1am 3y ago
  > I've not heard of it being financially viable even when farmland is very constrained - say, in Holland There is EU single market. If farmland in Holland is constrained, it would be still cheaper to farm in other EU countries with plenty of land.
tremon 3y ago
Land farming isn't financially viable either under market prices, that's why there's huge farming subsidies to ensure crops remain affordable to the average citizen. I don't know if vertical farming receives less or more subsidies than regular farming, but "financially viable" in the food industry is an entire field of study, not something that can be determined in a single HN post.
- mc32 3y ago
  That all underscores the folly of vertical farming. Regular farming has thin enough margins. Vertical farming is multiple times more expensive and would require hoodwinking consumers into paying multiples for their produce through payments at the cash register or through tax subsidies for it to survive. Farm subsidies are much cheaper than this goldbergian alternative.
- Loughla 3y ago
  >Land farming isn't financially viable either under market prices Is that the reason subsidies exist? From my experience in farming, subsidies exist to ensure I can stay afloat if a crop fails for whatever reason, or if the market tanks, or just ensures a minimum income to make sure I don't go out of business. It seems like ag subsidies are one place we actually want government intervention (but I am surely biased). We don't really want our food supply to be open directly to the whims of both nature and direct market changes. There is too much of a ramp up time needed if a large share of farms go out of business. It's not like we don't need food next year just because we had a bumper crop this year that caused prices to tank, I guess is what I'm trying to say. For example - look at pork in the 90's. The price fell, and hard, causing most family pork farms went out. This is the reason we have like 2-3 producers of pork for the US now with mega factory pork farms. Is that good? I can't be convinced it is.

by mc32 3y ago

bell-cot 3y ago

> it’s not financially viable when there is ample land for farming. I've not heard of it being financially viable even when farmland is very constrained - say, in Holland. The numbers probably work on the ISS, Moon, or Mars...so those places will probably be "stars of the show", in the next round of hype which vertical farming companies use to bilk idiot VC's. (St. Helena has a reasonable latitude and low population density - so at most you'd need some greenhouses.)

romanovcode 3y ago
Right, I agree about Holland. Same would apply to Belgium or Luxembourg. But what about 90% of the countries that do not have this problem? Everything east of France is just fields and fields of nothing.
- orangepurple 3y ago
  That's not true. There are lot of forests and mountains. To get to nothing you have to go all the way to Ukraine. It is relatively featureless south and east of Kyiv.
lightedman 3y ago
Most of the big hydroponic cannabis growers here in SoCal use vertical farms for sea of green operations. Financially-viable? Those people rake in MILLIONS yearly. Those systems consume very little in the way of resources, with tightly-controlled NFT hydroponic application and targeted-spectrum LED lighting running the show.
- mc32 3y ago
  We accounted for high margin things like drug producing plants and high value gastronomic things like mushrooms and leafy greens. These are the only viable crops and are exceptional, not normal. This is like saying mice are a desirable pest because drug labs use them for research. Yes, sure but it’s a very specific use case, but don’t pretend it’s the norm.
  - lightedman 3y ago
    "These are the only viable crops and are exceptional, not normal." No, they are not the only viable crops. I'll guarantee your studies don't take into account various methods of hydroponics for various crop types. Almost every study I've ever seen is purely focused on NFT vertical farming. NO JOKE it doesn't cover everything. You aren't growing corn in an NFT system. You will do it in a vertical DWC system. I took ag/hort-sci in high school, where I learned about these systems (hanging gardens of Babylon, anyone?) I was running vertical farming systems in the 90s in high school. The tech works. Learn which method of hydroponics is required for which crop. Plan your economic requirements. Literally basic high school education requirements and most of you don't seem to get it. not sure what happened between the 90s and now for y'all to mess up basic technology so badly.
- civilitty 3y ago
  > Those systems consume very little in the way of resources Since when is electricity not a resource? Unlike cannabis, you can’t sell tomatoes for $2,000 a pound.
  - lightedman 3y ago
    In a small footprint you need drastically-lower energy requirements. Also, with the advent of LED lighting, you use even less in atmospheric regulation, which becomes the major power-saver outside of the lighting itself. Also, the trick to vertical tomatoes is not what most people expect. They should look more into the upside-down pot idea and think about how best to take advantage of a top-down hanging system, like near-360 degree lighting between rows of hanging tomato plants to maximize exposure along the entire length of the curtain. These can be mounted horizontally under the nft channels the hanging plants grow from, allowing them to receive all the light they want while leaving walkway space (and overhead human-vision lighting space.) It takes a LOT of research to make things work and everyone just promises a turn-key system. THAT can't work. My systems work because of research and lots of first-principles thinking.
zajio1am 3y ago
> I've not heard of it being financially viable even when farmland is very constrained - say, in Holland There is EU single market. If farmland in Holland is constrained, it would be still cheaper to farm in other EU countries with plenty of land.

tremon 3y ago

Land farming isn't financially viable either under market prices, that's why there's huge farming subsidies to ensure crops remain affordable to the average citizen. I don't know if vertical farming receives less or more subsidies than regular farming, but "financially viable" in the food industry is an entire field of study, not something that can be determined in a single HN post.

mc32 3y ago
That all underscores the folly of vertical farming. Regular farming has thin enough margins. Vertical farming is multiple times more expensive and would require hoodwinking consumers into paying multiples for their produce through payments at the cash register or through tax subsidies for it to survive. Farm subsidies are much cheaper than this goldbergian alternative.
Loughla 3y ago
>Land farming isn't financially viable either under market prices Is that the reason subsidies exist? From my experience in farming, subsidies exist to ensure I can stay afloat if a crop fails for whatever reason, or if the market tanks, or just ensures a minimum income to make sure I don't go out of business. It seems like ag subsidies are one place we actually want government intervention (but I am surely biased). We don't really want our food supply to be open directly to the whims of both nature and direct market changes. There is too much of a ramp up time needed if a large share of farms go out of business. It's not like we don't need food next year just because we had a bumper crop this year that caused prices to tank, I guess is what I'm trying to say. For example - look at pork in the 90's. The price fell, and hard, causing most family pork farms went out. This is the reason we have like 2-3 producers of pork for the US now with mega factory pork farms. Is that good? I can't be convinced it is.