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If the FCC mandated Apple deploy an update to reduce phones catching fire then yes, I would use the term recall. For bugs that don’t fall into the safety or reg

If the FCC mandated Apple deploy an update to reduce phones catching fire then yes, I would use the term recall. For bugs that don’t fall into the safety or regulatory compliance category I would not.

gwd 3y ago
But "recall" means "calling back"; normally it means having to actually send a physical replacement. Consider three possible problems with autopilot: 1. There's a structural issue that affects camera systems which can't be fixed in a shop; for instance, something which may cause the camera to come loose which results in blind spots, that's due to the structural issue of the car itself. Tesla has to replace 2 million customer's actual cars, destroying the old ones (or perhaps selling them as "refurb but no autopilot"). 2. There's an issue that affects camera systems which can be fixed in a shop; Tesla has to pay for repairs for 2 million cars. 3. There's an issue which affects Autopilot which can be fixed in software. They push an over-the-air update automatically and everyone is fine. These each have very different properties in terms of costs to Tesla and hassle for owners; so it makes sense that there be a different word for them. "Recall" literally means "call back"; I'd argue for only using it in the case of #1.
- Notatheist 3y ago
  >But "recall" means "calling back"; Writing means to carve but you wrote this post without a metal stick and a hammer. >hassle for owners "Recall" is used to signify the severity of the flaw not the inconvenience fixing it caused owners. I feel "software update" doesn't do it justice at all and "recall" is appropriate.
- brookst 3y ago
  Just like “bit” is a term of art in computer science that means something different than “bit” in vernacular language, “recall” has a specific meaning in the automotive industry. A recall is a mandatory fix that the manufacturer is obligated to provide at no charge and to proactively notify customers of. It comes with reporting obligations and long term warranty implications. It might be that industries should not reuse common words, but IMO it’s a little silly to insist that they only use the most literal and etymologically correct terms for each individual action rather than defining categories that have clear meanings even if a specific action doesn’t perfectly match the most literal reading of the name of the category.
  - gwd 3y ago
    > A recall is a mandatory fix that the manufacturer is obligated to provide at no charge and to proactively notify customers of. It comes with reporting obligations and long term warranty implications. This does make sense; but I would nonetheless suggest to the auto industry that they change the wording somehow. Fifty years ago any such mandatory fix certainly did mean making manual modifications to each individual car, whether in a service shop or by replacing the whole thing. That's no longer the case, and risks significant public misunderstanding. Here in the UK they have loads of "archaisms": - pavement: A place for pedestrians to walk on the side of a road; what Americans call a "sidewalk". Named because 200 years ago, the roads were dirt but sidewalks were paved. Now the roads are paved too, but they kept calling it "pavement" - public school: A very posh private school; e.g., Eton. Named (as I understand it) because your children were taught in public, rather than in the home by a private tutor / governess / whatever.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > It might be that industries should not reuse common words, but IMO it’s a little silly to insist that they only use the most literal and etymologically correct terms for each individual action rather than defining categories that have clear meanings even if a specific action doesn’t perfectly match the most literal reading of the name of the category. I am not so sure. Take Linux kernel log levels: 0 = emergency 1 = alert 2 = critical 3 = error 4 = warning As soon as I saw this I showed it to multiple people, and none of them understand how a log level of "alert" can be more severe than "critical". Now, there is probably some greybeards that decided these words way way back and we decided to stuck with them. But if you tell someone "damn, the kernel is giving off alerts", their thought will be "well, at least the system isn't in a critical state or erroring out, right?". Intuition matters.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  In this context, recall also means "Tesla is doing this as a result of regulatory action". That it is straightforward is nice for them I guess, but it's less relevant to describing it than it being ordered by the government.
mngdtt 3y ago
"recall" is a malicious term in this context because it sounds like you need to take your car somewhere and have it out of service for a few days.
- bxguff 3y ago
  its not a malicious term its the NHTSA legal term, and what tesla will call it too when they mail out owner notification letters about the problem in February to anyone with a : model y (20-23) model x (16-23) model s (12-23) model 3 (17-23)
  - mavhc 3y ago
    Pretty sure this is a government subsidy for the post office
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Not to mention a tax on the company. You have to do all of these mailings no matter what! NVM the fact that customers will get them months after the work has automatically been done. :facepalm
    - acdha 3y ago
      The legal definition does not require them to use paper mail, and it’s a rounding error in the USPS budget. Here’s what they’re required to do: > In the case of a notification required to be sent by a motor vehicle manufacturer, by certified mail, verifiable electronic means such as receipts or logs from electronic mail or satellite distribution system, or other more expeditious and verifiable means to all dealers and distributors of the vehicles that contain the defect or noncompliance. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/577.7 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/577.7
- jjav 3y ago
  > "recall" is a malicious term in this context No. "recall" is a term with a meaning, it means: - the manufacturer has been obligated to fix this - they must fix it for all listed cars - they must fix it for free The term "recall" doesn't imply anything about the implementation details how the above is going to be accomplished. Whether you have to take it to a dealer, or it's done over the air, or even if they have to ship the car back to the factory, makes no difference to that fact that it is a recall.
Kuinox 3y ago
Except, no, since I have a very recent example that prove the opposite. iPhones 12 were banned for a short period in France because they emitted too much electromagnetic radiation. Now how did the media called this 'recall' ? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66795175 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66795175 An update.
- acdha 3y ago
  France is a different country with different laws. This is called a recall because that term is the legal mechanism under which the NHTSA has the authority to tell an automaker that they have to make sure all of the affected vehicles are safe to operate on public roads. This has a long history and is in no way unique to Tesla. The French system for radio emissions uses different terminology for the same ideas. The English term they used was a “temporary withdrawal” with a full recall if Apple couldn’t update the devices: https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit... This does mean that news coverage used the same language as the subject of the story, but that’s no more unfair than complaining that the BBC referred to a game as football even though you think they should have said soccer.
OJFord 3y ago
I think it makes sense in terms of 'v1.2.3 recall', whatever the version is, i.e. that particular version may no longer be shipped; shipped instances of it/licences for it will be 'recalled', however unlike hardware recalls where it needs to be physically taken in for servicing it may be possible to perform this remotely.

gwd 3y ago

But "recall" means "calling back"; normally it means having to actually send a physical replacement. Consider three possible problems with autopilot: 1. There's a structural issue that affects camera systems which can't be fixed in a shop; for instance, something which may cause the camera to come loose which results in blind spots, that's due to the structural issue of the car itself. Tesla has to replace 2 million customer's actual cars, destroying the old ones (or perhaps selling them as "refurb but no autopilot"). 2. There's an issue that affects camera systems which can be fixed in a shop; Tesla has to pay for repairs for 2 million cars. 3. There's an issue which affects Autopilot which can be fixed in software. They push an over-the-air update automatically and everyone is fine. These each have very different properties in terms of costs to Tesla and hassle for owners; so it makes sense that there be a different word for them. "Recall" literally means "call back"; I'd argue for only using it in the case of #1.

Notatheist 3y ago
>But "recall" means "calling back"; Writing means to carve but you wrote this post without a metal stick and a hammer. >hassle for owners "Recall" is used to signify the severity of the flaw not the inconvenience fixing it caused owners. I feel "software update" doesn't do it justice at all and "recall" is appropriate.
brookst 3y ago
Just like “bit” is a term of art in computer science that means something different than “bit” in vernacular language, “recall” has a specific meaning in the automotive industry. A recall is a mandatory fix that the manufacturer is obligated to provide at no charge and to proactively notify customers of. It comes with reporting obligations and long term warranty implications. It might be that industries should not reuse common words, but IMO it’s a little silly to insist that they only use the most literal and etymologically correct terms for each individual action rather than defining categories that have clear meanings even if a specific action doesn’t perfectly match the most literal reading of the name of the category.
- gwd 3y ago
  > A recall is a mandatory fix that the manufacturer is obligated to provide at no charge and to proactively notify customers of. It comes with reporting obligations and long term warranty implications. This does make sense; but I would nonetheless suggest to the auto industry that they change the wording somehow. Fifty years ago any such mandatory fix certainly did mean making manual modifications to each individual car, whether in a service shop or by replacing the whole thing. That's no longer the case, and risks significant public misunderstanding. Here in the UK they have loads of "archaisms": - pavement: A place for pedestrians to walk on the side of a road; what Americans call a "sidewalk". Named because 200 years ago, the roads were dirt but sidewalks were paved. Now the roads are paved too, but they kept calling it "pavement" - public school: A very posh private school; e.g., Eton. Named (as I understand it) because your children were taught in public, rather than in the home by a private tutor / governess / whatever.
- jorvi 3y ago
  > It might be that industries should not reuse common words, but IMO it’s a little silly to insist that they only use the most literal and etymologically correct terms for each individual action rather than defining categories that have clear meanings even if a specific action doesn’t perfectly match the most literal reading of the name of the category. I am not so sure. Take Linux kernel log levels: 0 = emergency 1 = alert 2 = critical 3 = error 4 = warning As soon as I saw this I showed it to multiple people, and none of them understand how a log level of "alert" can be more severe than "critical". Now, there is probably some greybeards that decided these words way way back and we decided to stuck with them. But if you tell someone "damn, the kernel is giving off alerts", their thought will be "well, at least the system isn't in a critical state or erroring out, right?". Intuition matters.
maxerickson 3y ago
In this context, recall also means "Tesla is doing this as a result of regulatory action". That it is straightforward is nice for them I guess, but it's less relevant to describing it than it being ordered by the government.

mngdtt 3y ago

"recall" is a malicious term in this context because it sounds like you need to take your car somewhere and have it out of service for a few days.

bxguff 3y ago
its not a malicious term its the NHTSA legal term, and what tesla will call it too when they mail out owner notification letters about the problem in February to anyone with a : model y (20-23) model x (16-23) model s (12-23) model 3 (17-23)
- mavhc 3y ago
  Pretty sure this is a government subsidy for the post office
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Not to mention a tax on the company. You have to do all of these mailings no matter what! NVM the fact that customers will get them months after the work has automatically been done. :facepalm
  - acdha 3y ago
    The legal definition does not require them to use paper mail, and it’s a rounding error in the USPS budget. Here’s what they’re required to do: > In the case of a notification required to be sent by a motor vehicle manufacturer, by certified mail, verifiable electronic means such as receipts or logs from electronic mail or satellite distribution system, or other more expeditious and verifiable means to all dealers and distributors of the vehicles that contain the defect or noncompliance. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/577.7 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/577.7
jjav 3y ago
> "recall" is a malicious term in this context No. "recall" is a term with a meaning, it means: - the manufacturer has been obligated to fix this - they must fix it for all listed cars - they must fix it for free The term "recall" doesn't imply anything about the implementation details how the above is going to be accomplished. Whether you have to take it to a dealer, or it's done over the air, or even if they have to ship the car back to the factory, makes no difference to that fact that it is a recall.

Kuinox 3y ago

Except, no, since I have a very recent example that prove the opposite. iPhones 12 were banned for a short period in France because they emitted too much electromagnetic radiation. Now how did the media called this 'recall' ? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66795175 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66795175 An update.

acdha 3y ago
France is a different country with different laws. This is called a recall because that term is the legal mechanism under which the NHTSA has the authority to tell an automaker that they have to make sure all of the affected vehicles are safe to operate on public roads. This has a long history and is in no way unique to Tesla. The French system for radio emissions uses different terminology for the same ideas. The English term they used was a “temporary withdrawal” with a full recall if Apple couldn’t update the devices: https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit... This does mean that news coverage used the same language as the subject of the story, but that’s no more unfair than complaining that the BBC referred to a game as football even though you think they should have said soccer.

OJFord 3y ago

I think it makes sense in terms of 'v1.2.3 recall', whatever the version is, i.e. that particular version may no longer be shipped; shipped instances of it/licences for it will be 'recalled', however unlike hardware recalls where it needs to be physically taken in for servicing it may be possible to perform this remotely.