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Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? There's the geographical limitation but it's operational and autonomous to an adva

by z7 3y ago

Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? There's the geographical limitation but it's operational and autonomous to an advanced degree.

chairmanwow1 3y ago
They also have teleoperators remotely to tale over.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  This seems to be an incredibly popular belief despite the fact that there's no evidence for it and it wouldn't make any sense. Waymo's remote support teams can reach into the driver's model of the world to fix things, for example maybe it mistook this stray traffic cone for actual roadworks - but they can't actually drive the car. If Waymo needs a human to drive the car, they send a human to physically sit in it and drive the car. They have a whole bunch of people for that role. If you were in a Waymo that drove somewhere and there wasn't anybody in the driving seat, that's not because some 10 year old was using a PS4 controller to steer it from Bangalore, that's the Waymo driver software.
  - simonw 3y ago
    Why is it unlikely that Waymo would have the equivalent of a remote control option for getting the car unstuck? That seems like both an obvious and an easy to implement solution to me, what am I missing?
    - yreg 3y ago
      It's easier to tell the computer instructions to get unstuck than driving with a lag. When the instructions are specific enough we could call it driving if you want, but it's not done with a steering wheel in real time.
    - foobazgt 3y ago
      What happens when you lose connection mid-maneuver, or there's congestion on the network causing high latency? The vehicle would have to be smart enough to execute all the tactical parts of driving anyway. Adding remote piloting just adds more failure cases and complexity.
      - simonw 3y ago
        I'm not talking about remote driving all the time - I'm talking about recovering from weird edge-cases, like the car gets confused by a traffic cone on a flat bed truck and stops and needs to be reversed 3 feet and pointed in a slightly different direction to get it running again.
cbeach 3y ago
Tesla's system is generalised and can operate on any roads. It also uses vision, as opposed to a crazy number of sensors including LIDAR. Tesla FSD is a much more promising and human-like AI.
- aeyes 3y ago
  If, and that is a big IF, they manage to achieve it. My best guess is that Tesla won't get anywhere close to L5 before the end of this decade. Your best chance today is to pack more sensores. Edit: I still believe that the systems which assist the driver today are useful and can make driving safer and easier. I don't want to downplay what they have achieved but they are a looong way from L5.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    I believe the CEO of Waymo, the company that is actually succeeding in self-driving, has said several times now that L5 is not even on the horizon, for anyone. The problem isn't just training, it's sensors. There are simply no sensors available today that work in all the different weather conditions that L5 requires with the required precision.
  - mythhabit 3y ago
    And even if they manage to pull it off, they ought to have data showing that they, in particular, can remove lidar sensor without losing fidelity, simply because we know that lidar is what gives reliable range information.
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  True FSD will only come from LIDAR + vision. Relying only on vision feels exceedingly dangerous. I recall a recent (last 2 years?) case where a guy was essentially decapitated by a flat-bed semi because his car couldn’t recognize the semi’s bed due to it being right at camera level. I think the Pure vision stuff is nifty, but “nifty” is the exact dead-last parameter when trying to transport my family safely from point A to point B.
  - 3y ago
Mashimo 3y ago
> Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? Who says it can't?
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
Don't they still have remote overseers?
two_handfuls 3y ago
> Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? FSD is a brand name, it’s not a term of the art. But, yes, Waymo could reasonably be called “FSD”.

by z7 3y ago

Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? There's the geographical limitation but it's operational and autonomous to an advanced degree.

chairmanwow1 3y ago

They also have teleoperators remotely to tale over.

tialaramex 3y ago
This seems to be an incredibly popular belief despite the fact that there's no evidence for it and it wouldn't make any sense. Waymo's remote support teams can reach into the driver's model of the world to fix things, for example maybe it mistook this stray traffic cone for actual roadworks - but they can't actually drive the car. If Waymo needs a human to drive the car, they send a human to physically sit in it and drive the car. They have a whole bunch of people for that role. If you were in a Waymo that drove somewhere and there wasn't anybody in the driving seat, that's not because some 10 year old was using a PS4 controller to steer it from Bangalore, that's the Waymo driver software.
- simonw 3y ago
  Why is it unlikely that Waymo would have the equivalent of a remote control option for getting the car unstuck? That seems like both an obvious and an easy to implement solution to me, what am I missing?
  - yreg 3y ago
    It's easier to tell the computer instructions to get unstuck than driving with a lag. When the instructions are specific enough we could call it driving if you want, but it's not done with a steering wheel in real time.
  - foobazgt 3y ago
    What happens when you lose connection mid-maneuver, or there's congestion on the network causing high latency? The vehicle would have to be smart enough to execute all the tactical parts of driving anyway. Adding remote piloting just adds more failure cases and complexity.
    - simonw 3y ago
      I'm not talking about remote driving all the time - I'm talking about recovering from weird edge-cases, like the car gets confused by a traffic cone on a flat bed truck and stops and needs to be reversed 3 feet and pointed in a slightly different direction to get it running again.

cbeach 3y ago

Tesla's system is generalised and can operate on any roads. It also uses vision, as opposed to a crazy number of sensors including LIDAR. Tesla FSD is a much more promising and human-like AI.

aeyes 3y ago
If, and that is a big IF, they manage to achieve it. My best guess is that Tesla won't get anywhere close to L5 before the end of this decade. Your best chance today is to pack more sensores. Edit: I still believe that the systems which assist the driver today are useful and can make driving safer and easier. I don't want to downplay what they have achieved but they are a looong way from L5.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  I believe the CEO of Waymo, the company that is actually succeeding in self-driving, has said several times now that L5 is not even on the horizon, for anyone. The problem isn't just training, it's sensors. There are simply no sensors available today that work in all the different weather conditions that L5 requires with the required precision.
- mythhabit 3y ago
  And even if they manage to pull it off, they ought to have data showing that they, in particular, can remove lidar sensor without losing fidelity, simply because we know that lidar is what gives reliable range information.
blitz_skull 3y ago
True FSD will only come from LIDAR + vision. Relying only on vision feels exceedingly dangerous. I recall a recent (last 2 years?) case where a guy was essentially decapitated by a flat-bed semi because his car couldn’t recognize the semi’s bed due to it being right at camera level. I think the Pure vision stuff is nifty, but “nifty” is the exact dead-last parameter when trying to transport my family safely from point A to point B.
- 3y ago

Mashimo 3y ago

> Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? Who says it can't?

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

Don't they still have remote overseers?

two_handfuls 3y ago

> Why can't Waymo's autonomous taxi service in San Francisco be considered FSD? FSD is a brand name, it’s not a term of the art. But, yes, Waymo could reasonably be called “FSD”.