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"Imaginary" lines that people fight and die over. Are you really this deluded? Nations exist. People bound together by the land and cultural and genetic heritag

"Imaginary" lines that people fight and die over. Are you really this deluded? Nations exist. People bound together by the land and cultural and genetic heritage is a real thing. Unsurprisingly many people with strong ties to their nation don't see the net benefit of making it especially easy for rootless cosmopolitans to crash in. After all, you can't count on them in a tight spot. They have no loyalty.

ktizo 15y ago
People fight and die over a lot of imaginary things. Nations are concepts that exist through a shared belief in the existence of nations. People can be bound together by land and heritage without having had the idea of nations or national borders. Also, while the walls that are put along the imaginary lines may have a reality to themselves, the lines are much more fluid and are unbound to the physical items that represent them. Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire, however the current border between England and Scotland is much further north and is represented by nothing other than the occasional sign and line of paint and for the vast majority of the length of this line has no indication on the ground of its actual whereabouts. [edit] And as far as loyalty goes, loyalty is independent of patriotism and is perfectly capable of transcending geography.
- arethuza 15y ago
  "Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire" There is another further North - the Antonine wall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall There is quite a lot of Roman infrastructure North of Hadrian's Wall - indeed I had a wander along part of Dere Street last weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street
kijin 15y ago
A lot of people who call themselves "citizens" have no loyalty, either. Cultural and genetic heritage exists, but its boundaries are in a mutual feedback relationship with political borders. Culture and genetics might cause political borders to be where they are, but they are also caused and reinforced by where political borders happen to be. (The law makes it difficult for you to travel to America => You're unlikely to be immersed in American culture or marry an American => Your culture and genetics remain very distinct from American culture and genetics => People see no need to facilitate travel to America => Repeat cycle.) So if borders and border control policies changed, the boundaries of cultural and genetic heritage will follow suit, and vice versa. This means you can't just appeal to existing cultural boundaries to argue for some sort of nationalism that perpetuates said boundaries. So although I agree with you that borders aren't completely "imaginary", they're not completely real and static, either.

ktizo 15y ago

People fight and die over a lot of imaginary things. Nations are concepts that exist through a shared belief in the existence of nations. People can be bound together by land and heritage without having had the idea of nations or national borders. Also, while the walls that are put along the imaginary lines may have a reality to themselves, the lines are much more fluid and are unbound to the physical items that represent them. Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire, however the current border between England and Scotland is much further north and is represented by nothing other than the occasional sign and line of paint and for the vast majority of the length of this line has no indication on the ground of its actual whereabouts. [edit] And as far as loyalty goes, loyalty is independent of patriotism and is perfectly capable of transcending geography.

arethuza 15y ago
"Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire" There is another further North - the Antonine wall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall There is quite a lot of Roman infrastructure North of Hadrian's Wall - indeed I had a wander along part of Dere Street last weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street

kijin 15y ago

A lot of people who call themselves "citizens" have no loyalty, either. Cultural and genetic heritage exists, but its boundaries are in a mutual feedback relationship with political borders. Culture and genetics might cause political borders to be where they are, but they are also caused and reinforced by where political borders happen to be. (The law makes it difficult for you to travel to America => You're unlikely to be immersed in American culture or marry an American => Your culture and genetics remain very distinct from American culture and genetics => People see no need to facilitate travel to America => Repeat cycle.) So if borders and border control policies changed, the boundaries of cultural and genetic heritage will follow suit, and vice versa. This means you can't just appeal to existing cultural boundaries to argue for some sort of nationalism that perpetuates said boundaries. So although I agree with you that borders aren't completely "imaginary", they're not completely real and static, either.