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I’m all for the shady dealings and real power structures that drive the app stores to be exposed, so I applaud this ruling and that Epic saw this through. The

by kbos87 3y ago

I’m all for the shady dealings and real power structures that drive the app stores to be exposed, so I applaud this ruling and that Epic saw this through. The product person in me does wonder what the experience of using an App Store is going to be like in another few years if we continue down this path. Am I going to be forced out to some slow and clunky checkout experience in my browser every time an app wants money from me? Are the days of being able to manage most of my digital subscriptions from a single screen in the settings of my phone over? While this ruling was only against Google (and the recent outcome against Apple was different) I don’t know that I love the picture this paints for me as a consumer. I don’t buy the argument that this is going to result in lower prices for me - probably just a worse experience. I’m sure that Google (and Apple, should a similar fate eventually come their way) will fight this every step of the way, and I can imagine there’s a lot they could do to nudge users to opt for the better experience of using their native payments infrastructure. I don’t know to what extent courts are willing or able to micromanage some of those details but it will be interesting to see it all play out.

rezonant 3y ago
Well, as a consumer, instead of having to switch your entire phone if you don't like the way apps are billed, you'll now be able to switch apps if you don't like how that specific app handles billing. Some things like Netflix and Amazon were already this way, even on Apple devices. As a product person myself, I would hope that the net result is that we would be allowed to offer both: that we could have a fast friction free purchase via iOS/GPlay and pay the toll, but present the option to pay us directly if the user wants to support us more, or offer lower prices when the transaction is via a provider that takes 3% instead of 30%. I find that to be much more likely. Friction is a real thing in subscription services, and that isn't changing just because the OS vendors might not be able to force apps to use the platform IAP system anymore.
- maccard 3y ago
  > you'll now be able to switch apps if you don't like how that specific app handles billing. I think you mean "you'll now have to use the developers preferred app for billing".
  - rezonant 3y ago
    Well no, my point is if the developers preferred app for billing isn't what you want, you can more easily find another app. Before all of this you had no choice if you didn't like, for instance, giving your credit card information to Google, or if you wanted more of your money to support the app you were using. I'm not saying some huge percentage of the population will care about the 30%, but as app developers we would be empowered to explain it, if we thought it was worth it. As I mentioned, I think high quality apps will overwhelmingly still offer a convenient way to pay using IAP, because the friction cost of adding a new subscriber is high when everyone has their CC in their store. And probably that will come with lower prices for those who are willing to punch in a credit card onto a form. I do think it's still well within the rights of Apple and Google to expect certain security practices from these billing solutions, and I expect that will replace the time reviewers currently spend looking for where the app dev tries to do off platform billing today.
    - maccard 3y ago
      > As I mentioned, I think high quality apps will overwhelmingly still offer a convenient way to pay using IAP, Really? right now, to rent a video on Prime on android, you have to switch to a web browser. Netflix doesn't let you sign up in app. Epic decide to sue Apple and Google to avoid paying the IAP fees. All the signs point to major players being willing to circumvent the app store for > Before all of this you had no choice if you didn't like, for instance, giving your credit card information to Google, or if you wanted more of your money to support the app you were using Sure you do, sign up outside the app like Netflix and co provide support for. In fact, if you go look at other aplications taht offer payment outside of the app store, you can likely already do that. Calm, for example offers a discount if you punch your details into the form online. Here's an example of exactly what's going to happen - I live outside the US and I signed up for NYT Cooking on their website. In order to cancel it, I have to _phone_ them to cancel. This will not give customers "more choice", this will allow Billion dollar companies like Epic, Meta, Netflix to run their own app stores and force you to download from there instead.
  - bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
    Maybe the law should be mandating at least 3 payment options for any app. And let users make the decision.
3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
> Are the days of being able to manage most of my digital subscriptions from a single screen in the settings of my phone over? You applaud this ruling yet you fear the outcomes. Don't you think this is dissonant? Keep in mind the kind of ruthless practices we've seen from Epic Games' store make Google and Apple seem like child's play. Nothing good will come out of this fragmentation. It makes no sense in the first place to have multiple app stores per one OS. An OS only exists to host apps on the device, and the store exists to host apps in a central repository from where devices copy. Both are part of one service continuum. The apps target the same APIs and the same OS. I wish we'd see more OS and hardware platforms instead, each with its own store. A healthy market would be 3-5 types of devices with their own OS you can pick from. Alas.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  > An OS only exists to host apps on the device, and the store exists to host apps in a central repository from where devices copy. Then the store needs to have the apps I want available. If they don't, why shouldn't I be able to look at other stores?
- maccard 3y ago
  > Keep in mind the kind of ruthless practices we've seen from Epic Games' store make Google and Apple seem like child's play. I disagree - all EGS did was fund exclusives. Meanwhile, both Apple and Google have been propping up other categories with gaming spends, and offering hushed sweetheart deals to other categories. > The apps target the same APIs and the same OS. I wish we'd see more OS and hardware platforms instead, each with its own store. A healthy market would be 3-5 types of devices with their own OS you can pick from. Alas. Could not agree any more.
2d8a875f-39a2-4 3y ago
At what % discount point on a purchase would you suffer through that experience instead of paying the premium app store price? The app stores will quickly work out the 75th percentile (or 90th or whatever) and reduce their take accordingly.
eviks 3y ago
Sure, if you don't buy one of the main benefits of more competition - lower prices - and only imagine the bad parts of the alternatives, it's natural that the picture is bleak

by kbos87 3y ago

rezonant 3y ago

Well, as a consumer, instead of having to switch your entire phone if you don't like the way apps are billed, you'll now be able to switch apps if you don't like how that specific app handles billing. Some things like Netflix and Amazon were already this way, even on Apple devices. As a product person myself, I would hope that the net result is that we would be allowed to offer both: that we could have a fast friction free purchase via iOS/GPlay and pay the toll, but present the option to pay us directly if the user wants to support us more, or offer lower prices when the transaction is via a provider that takes 3% instead of 30%. I find that to be much more likely. Friction is a real thing in subscription services, and that isn't changing just because the OS vendors might not be able to force apps to use the platform IAP system anymore.

maccard 3y ago
> you'll now be able to switch apps if you don't like how that specific app handles billing. I think you mean "you'll now have to use the developers preferred app for billing".
- rezonant 3y ago
  Well no, my point is if the developers preferred app for billing isn't what you want, you can more easily find another app. Before all of this you had no choice if you didn't like, for instance, giving your credit card information to Google, or if you wanted more of your money to support the app you were using. I'm not saying some huge percentage of the population will care about the 30%, but as app developers we would be empowered to explain it, if we thought it was worth it. As I mentioned, I think high quality apps will overwhelmingly still offer a convenient way to pay using IAP, because the friction cost of adding a new subscriber is high when everyone has their CC in their store. And probably that will come with lower prices for those who are willing to punch in a credit card onto a form. I do think it's still well within the rights of Apple and Google to expect certain security practices from these billing solutions, and I expect that will replace the time reviewers currently spend looking for where the app dev tries to do off platform billing today.
  - maccard 3y ago
    > As I mentioned, I think high quality apps will overwhelmingly still offer a convenient way to pay using IAP, Really? right now, to rent a video on Prime on android, you have to switch to a web browser. Netflix doesn't let you sign up in app. Epic decide to sue Apple and Google to avoid paying the IAP fees. All the signs point to major players being willing to circumvent the app store for > Before all of this you had no choice if you didn't like, for instance, giving your credit card information to Google, or if you wanted more of your money to support the app you were using Sure you do, sign up outside the app like Netflix and co provide support for. In fact, if you go look at other aplications taht offer payment outside of the app store, you can likely already do that. Calm, for example offers a discount if you punch your details into the form online. Here's an example of exactly what's going to happen - I live outside the US and I signed up for NYT Cooking on their website. In order to cancel it, I have to _phone_ them to cancel. This will not give customers "more choice", this will allow Billion dollar companies like Epic, Meta, Netflix to run their own app stores and force you to download from there instead.
- bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
  Maybe the law should be mandating at least 3 payment options for any app. And let users make the decision.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago

> Are the days of being able to manage most of my digital subscriptions from a single screen in the settings of my phone over? You applaud this ruling yet you fear the outcomes. Don't you think this is dissonant? Keep in mind the kind of ruthless practices we've seen from Epic Games' store make Google and Apple seem like child's play. Nothing good will come out of this fragmentation. It makes no sense in the first place to have multiple app stores per one OS. An OS only exists to host apps on the device, and the store exists to host apps in a central repository from where devices copy. Both are part of one service continuum. The apps target the same APIs and the same OS. I wish we'd see more OS and hardware platforms instead, each with its own store. A healthy market would be 3-5 types of devices with their own OS you can pick from. Alas.

ThatPlayer 3y ago
> An OS only exists to host apps on the device, and the store exists to host apps in a central repository from where devices copy. Then the store needs to have the apps I want available. If they don't, why shouldn't I be able to look at other stores?
maccard 3y ago
> Keep in mind the kind of ruthless practices we've seen from Epic Games' store make Google and Apple seem like child's play. I disagree - all EGS did was fund exclusives. Meanwhile, both Apple and Google have been propping up other categories with gaming spends, and offering hushed sweetheart deals to other categories. > The apps target the same APIs and the same OS. I wish we'd see more OS and hardware platforms instead, each with its own store. A healthy market would be 3-5 types of devices with their own OS you can pick from. Alas. Could not agree any more.

2d8a875f-39a2-4 3y ago

At what % discount point on a purchase would you suffer through that experience instead of paying the premium app store price? The app stores will quickly work out the 75th percentile (or 90th or whatever) and reduce their take accordingly.

eviks 3y ago

Sure, if you don't buy one of the main benefits of more competition - lower prices - and only imagine the bad parts of the alternatives, it's natural that the picture is bleak