4 ms·

Seems mainly Google has treated people differently like Spotify and got caught for playing games. Apple play only 1 game and as in the article all internally,

Seems mainly Google has treated people differently like Spotify and got caught for playing games. Apple play only 1 game and as in the article all internally, harder to catch. Still it is a surprise as both are so similar. And if it failed you would think it should be Apple. Strange world. Even stranger if you dig in seems “logically”. Just crazy.

mcfedr 3y ago
No one found inside documents showing apple was playing games, but I struggle to believe there is none of that going on.
- broken_clock 3y ago
  There's a reason they changed Google's internal chat system to delete all messages after max 30 days. They don't want discovery happening again.
- rezonant 3y ago
  But they did play games, check the other subthreads. They were willing to bend over backwards for Netflix including giving them a lower cut.
  - mcfedr 3y ago
    And yet that judge didn't find a problem, which is stunning really, when, at least as far as I can see, the case that apple is monopolising the app store is just so obvious
esskay 3y ago
Apple's always taken the "if you want to play in our court, you play by our rules" approach to this kind of thing so wouldn't be at all surprised if there are zero back door deals going on there. They don't need to do that as no major app provider is going to want to be the one who's not on their app store. If Spotify for example left iOS devices all it would do is drive up Apple Music subscriptions. Very, very few people would switch operating systems for a single app. The average joe doesn't even think about app availability when picking a phone. At most I'd say theres likely some grey area about managing 3rd party subscriptions that arent being done via the app store.
- rtpg 3y ago
  It’s documented that Apple offers deals to companies to keep on using the App Store, or at least stick to its payments (Netflix in particular refused a sweetheart deal). If Spotify and Netflix were not on iOS I’m pretty sure lots of people would go look for an android. Not everyone, but a percentage above 0 (and probably above 2 or 3 percent I bet)
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    Is there evidence that suggests there are companies out there today that have different deals on the iOS App Store than the standard?
    - mcfedr 3y ago
      It's in the app store rules, media companies have a special deal, that no one else gets.
  - JimDabell 3y ago
    > It’s documented that Apple offers deals to companies to keep on using the App Store Is it? I know that it has happened in the past, but in 2020, Tim Cook testified to Congress that they treat everybody equally. Is there any evidence showing that they still offer special deals today?
- dannyw 3y ago
  Netflix was offered 15% by Apple (not 15% after 1 year; but just 15%; and before the public offer): https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-project-liberty-app-store-schiller-sweeney-cook-jobs https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-proj...
rezonant 3y ago
Apple has explored deals with large app makers like Netflix as well (https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netflix-in-app-purchase-removal-emails https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netfli...). They even offered 15% to Netflix (https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-project-liberty-app-store-schiller-sweeney-cook-jobs https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-proj...) Certain parts of App Store policy are the result of this sort of thing. For example there is a carve out for media services-- unlike the rest of the app ecosystem, it is OK for subscriber only media services to have an app that requires login to use it. This was a result of Netflix refusing to use IAP. If you didn't know, it is otherwise not allowed to have a login only experience. You can't even require users to sign up for an account before a user purchases an IAP product or subscription, let alone require a signup before the app is used. While this is a pro consumer move, it does mean headaches for any user that purchases a subscription without attaching an email address and then expects the app's customer support to be able to identify their subscription. It also confuses users because they'll say they're emailing on the same email as their Apple account, but that doesn't help because a subscription purchase doesn't come with the user's email.
- mcfedr 3y ago
  Is it pro consumer? Those exact reasons you describe are why apps want you to make an account. Doing customer service for people in this situation is a nightmare
  - rezonant 3y ago
    Well that's what they claim. And to be fair, since managing that subscription is entirely in the user's hands in the App Store UI/UX, it sort of makes sense- the user shouldn't have to receive spam to buy a random subscription. But I do fall more on the side of your opinion after spending 5 years managing these sorts of systems and working with the support team.
    - mcfedr 3y ago
      As a developer, It gives apple all the power, I don't own the relationship between me and my customers. And the same as a customer, you have this third party butting in, and getting in the way of the experience.
julianozen 3y ago
Apple also rewrote the rules to allow Amazon Prime users to buy video content in their app as long as the user has Prime and already has a CC on the account > “Apple has an established program for premium subscription video entertainment providers to offer a variety of customer benefits — including integration with the Apple TV app, AirPlay 2 support, tvOS apps, universal search, Siri support and, where applicable, single or zero sign-on,” Apple said in a statement given to The Verge. “On qualifying premium video entertainment apps such as Prime Video, Atlice One and Canal+, customers have the option to buy or rent movies and TV shows using the payment method tied to their existing video subscription.” https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-video-ios-in-app-purchases-iphone-ipad-apple-tv-change https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-vide...
- maccard 3y ago
  Your quote even says that it's not just prime. That's not a sweetheart deal for amazon, that's a carve out for an entire app category.

mcfedr 3y ago

No one found inside documents showing apple was playing games, but I struggle to believe there is none of that going on.

broken_clock 3y ago
There's a reason they changed Google's internal chat system to delete all messages after max 30 days. They don't want discovery happening again.
rezonant 3y ago
But they did play games, check the other subthreads. They were willing to bend over backwards for Netflix including giving them a lower cut.
- mcfedr 3y ago
  And yet that judge didn't find a problem, which is stunning really, when, at least as far as I can see, the case that apple is monopolising the app store is just so obvious

esskay 3y ago

Apple's always taken the "if you want to play in our court, you play by our rules" approach to this kind of thing so wouldn't be at all surprised if there are zero back door deals going on there. They don't need to do that as no major app provider is going to want to be the one who's not on their app store. If Spotify for example left iOS devices all it would do is drive up Apple Music subscriptions. Very, very few people would switch operating systems for a single app. The average joe doesn't even think about app availability when picking a phone. At most I'd say theres likely some grey area about managing 3rd party subscriptions that arent being done via the app store.

rtpg 3y ago
It’s documented that Apple offers deals to companies to keep on using the App Store, or at least stick to its payments (Netflix in particular refused a sweetheart deal). If Spotify and Netflix were not on iOS I’m pretty sure lots of people would go look for an android. Not everyone, but a percentage above 0 (and probably above 2 or 3 percent I bet)
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Is there evidence that suggests there are companies out there today that have different deals on the iOS App Store than the standard?
  - mcfedr 3y ago
    It's in the app store rules, media companies have a special deal, that no one else gets.
- JimDabell 3y ago
  > It’s documented that Apple offers deals to companies to keep on using the App Store Is it? I know that it has happened in the past, but in 2020, Tim Cook testified to Congress that they treat everybody equally. Is there any evidence showing that they still offer special deals today?
dannyw 3y ago
Netflix was offered 15% by Apple (not 15% after 1 year; but just 15%; and before the public offer): https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-project-liberty-app-store-schiller-sweeney-cook-jobs https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-proj...

rezonant 3y ago

Apple has explored deals with large app makers like Netflix as well (https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netflix-in-app-purchase-removal-emails https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netfli...). They even offered 15% to Netflix (https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-project-liberty-app-store-schiller-sweeney-cook-jobs https://www.theverge.com/c/22611236/epic-v-apple-emails-proj...) Certain parts of App Store policy are the result of this sort of thing. For example there is a carve out for media services-- unlike the rest of the app ecosystem, it is OK for subscriber only media services to have an app that requires login to use it. This was a result of Netflix refusing to use IAP. If you didn't know, it is otherwise not allowed to have a login only experience. You can't even require users to sign up for an account before a user purchases an IAP product or subscription, let alone require a signup before the app is used. While this is a pro consumer move, it does mean headaches for any user that purchases a subscription without attaching an email address and then expects the app's customer support to be able to identify their subscription. It also confuses users because they'll say they're emailing on the same email as their Apple account, but that doesn't help because a subscription purchase doesn't come with the user's email.

mcfedr 3y ago
Is it pro consumer? Those exact reasons you describe are why apps want you to make an account. Doing customer service for people in this situation is a nightmare
- rezonant 3y ago
  Well that's what they claim. And to be fair, since managing that subscription is entirely in the user's hands in the App Store UI/UX, it sort of makes sense- the user shouldn't have to receive spam to buy a random subscription. But I do fall more on the side of your opinion after spending 5 years managing these sorts of systems and working with the support team.
  - mcfedr 3y ago
    As a developer, It gives apple all the power, I don't own the relationship between me and my customers. And the same as a customer, you have this third party butting in, and getting in the way of the experience.

julianozen 3y ago

Apple also rewrote the rules to allow Amazon Prime users to buy video content in their app as long as the user has Prime and already has a CC on the account > “Apple has an established program for premium subscription video entertainment providers to offer a variety of customer benefits — including integration with the Apple TV app, AirPlay 2 support, tvOS apps, universal search, Siri support and, where applicable, single or zero sign-on,” Apple said in a statement given to The Verge. “On qualifying premium video entertainment apps such as Prime Video, Atlice One and Canal+, customers have the option to buy or rent movies and TV shows using the payment method tied to their existing video subscription.” https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-video-ios-in-app-purchases-iphone-ipad-apple-tv-change https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-vide...

maccard 3y ago
Your quote even says that it's not just prime. That's not a sweetheart deal for amazon, that's a carve out for an entire app category.