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> Something like ProxMox that has no third party support, no veeam support, limited automation tooling, limited support for commerical monitoring (like PRTG) et

> Something like ProxMox that has no third party support, no veeam support, limited automation tooling, limited support for commerical monitoring (like PRTG) etc etc is probally a non-starter unless those things support it. Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens and an access control system to allow for safe automation. There are also Terraform providers and Ansible modules for those that do not want to use the API directly, or use those automation tools already. There's also Proxmox Backup Server that can handle guest-level backups as good as Veeam can, but yes, the agents and application level backups is still not there, but most of those are unrelated to the outer hypervisor, so one can still use their preferred backup solution for those parts just fine. Central monitoring is possible through the external metric server integration. Further third-party integration is a natural chicken-and-egg issue. For a lot of third party integrations you might just need to ask the vendor of said third party if they can support Proxmox VE, as long as they receive no inquiries as admins won't even ask if it would be possible, they have no incentive to add support for anything. But it's getting better, and more eggs are hatching. > It would cost us far far far far more than 3x licensing increases to git rid vmware. Broadcom knows this. The migrations I saw in our enterprise support had way lower cost. IMO 3x the cost would need some heavily specialized workload (which IME fewer admins actually really have than they might think) and/or admins that are just heavily against any change (as yes, they must relearn how to do some things, there are training courses for a few thousand bucks that cover the whole stack though) or having an anti-FOSS/Linux'ish mindset. I.e., come to us with so many prejudices that it's hard to make them realize that, while there are surely things that can improve, that just the same on the other side of the "pasture", but overall the grass is quite green enough for most use cases already.

phpisthebest 3y ago
>>>>Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens I am sure it does, that would then require enterprise to build their own tooling. I clearly talked about integration with 3rd parties that were built into the product, I do not know many IT Teams that have either the human resources to devote or in many cases the Knowledge to inhouse dev their one tools on that level. They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. This is a common point of contention when I interact with people in developer or devops communities like this one, they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud... >>>>There's also Proxmox Backup Server that can handle guest-level backups as good as Veeam can, but yes, the agents and application level backups is still not there PBS is not a replacement for veeam even for Guest-Level Backups, It is about 5 years behind if not more in Backup Tech. Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not) * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly) * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption * SQL Transaction Logs backup in per minute intervals with cross location functionality * Continuous Replication * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this) * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support * Immutable backups repository Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced
- tlamponi 3y ago
  > They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is available, even if not yet as broadly (cue chicken and egg), lots of such extra third-party tooling makes one's infrastructure dependent by many more projects than required, each adding complexity and reducing reliability. But as said, this is a complaint for the third-party tooling provider. > they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud... Yeah, we certainly did not forget that and cater that group extensively already. But currently the ones that use PVE or PBS are the ones favoring independence, i.e., FOSS and projects that only have to answer to their user, but no profit optimization machine, either by being bitten way to often by such changes already or understood early enough that having core infra on a proprietary platform including any 3rd party tooling is rather reckless for the long term (cue at this thread). > Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not) s/ProxMox/Proxmox VE/ There's no upper case m, and Proxmox is the company, the actual products are Proxmox Virtual Environment (PVE), Proxmox Backup Server (PBS), Proxmox Mail Gateway (PMG), etc. But, let's actually comment your points: > * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly) AWS wasn't in our scope, but we can add any target that has an actual open specification, i.e., not requiring a deal with the devil that would force us to do a low quality hidden proprietary implementation. > * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption We sure have that since decades, we use the QEMU Guest Agent to bring the guest, and applications like DBs into a safe state by issuing a freeze/thaw command when creating the dirty-bitmap. > * Continuous Replication Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS. > * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports Wasn't done with PBS <-> PVE di > * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files Yes, PBS has a content addressable storage with great deduplication and compression. > * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this) This is indeed lacking, but we're working on it, I'd think we have something read until mid of 2024. > * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks Not sure what you mean here exactly.. > * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done... > * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups You can use the CLI client already, but yeah it should get some UX improvements for making that nicer OOTB. > * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support This is supported since years by Proxmox Backup Server. Sorry, but at this point I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated? > * Immutable backups repository The PBS allows that too, we have explicit permission rights that can only add backups, never remove, plus on sync to off-site one can also disable any pruning, those features and our tape support makes it easy to have ransomware protected backups. > Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced As most your points above are already supported I'd take 1.5x at best, but thanks for your feedback, some of it was quite valuable.

phpisthebest 3y ago

>>>>Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens I am sure it does, that would then require enterprise to build their own tooling. I clearly talked about integration with 3rd parties that were built into the product, I do not know many IT Teams that have either the human resources to devote or in many cases the Knowledge to inhouse dev their one tools on that level. They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. This is a common point of contention when I interact with people in developer or devops communities like this one, they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud... >>>>There's also Proxmox Backup Server that can handle guest-level backups as good as Veeam can, but yes, the agents and application level backups is still not there PBS is not a replacement for veeam even for Guest-Level Backups, It is about 5 years behind if not more in Backup Tech. Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not) * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly) * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption * SQL Transaction Logs backup in per minute intervals with cross location functionality * Continuous Replication * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this) * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support * Immutable backups repository Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced

tlamponi 3y ago
> They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is available, even if not yet as broadly (cue chicken and egg), lots of such extra third-party tooling makes one's infrastructure dependent by many more projects than required, each adding complexity and reducing reliability. But as said, this is a complaint for the third-party tooling provider. > they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud... Yeah, we certainly did not forget that and cater that group extensively already. But currently the ones that use PVE or PBS are the ones favoring independence, i.e., FOSS and projects that only have to answer to their user, but no profit optimization machine, either by being bitten way to often by such changes already or understood early enough that having core infra on a proprietary platform including any 3rd party tooling is rather reckless for the long term (cue at this thread). > Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not) s/ProxMox/Proxmox VE/ There's no upper case m, and Proxmox is the company, the actual products are Proxmox Virtual Environment (PVE), Proxmox Backup Server (PBS), Proxmox Mail Gateway (PMG), etc. But, let's actually comment your points: > * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly) AWS wasn't in our scope, but we can add any target that has an actual open specification, i.e., not requiring a deal with the devil that would force us to do a low quality hidden proprietary implementation. > * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption We sure have that since decades, we use the QEMU Guest Agent to bring the guest, and applications like DBs into a safe state by issuing a freeze/thaw command when creating the dirty-bitmap. > * Continuous Replication Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS. > * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports Wasn't done with PBS <-> PVE di > * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files Yes, PBS has a content addressable storage with great deduplication and compression. > * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this) This is indeed lacking, but we're working on it, I'd think we have something read until mid of 2024. > * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks Not sure what you mean here exactly.. > * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done... > * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups You can use the CLI client already, but yeah it should get some UX improvements for making that nicer OOTB. > * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support This is supported since years by Proxmox Backup Server. Sorry, but at this point I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated? > * Immutable backups repository The PBS allows that too, we have explicit permission rights that can only add backups, never remove, plus on sync to off-site one can also disable any pruning, those features and our tape support makes it easy to have ransomware protected backups. > Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced As most your points above are already supported I'd take 1.5x at best, but thanks for your feedback, some of it was quite valuable.