4 ms·

Borders are imaginary lines. But unfortunately border control officers are not and usually have little time for philosophy on the nature of socially constructed

by ktizo 15y ago

Borders are imaginary lines. But unfortunately border control officers are not and usually have little time for philosophy on the nature of socially constructed boundaries. Perhaps you could just tell them that you decided to retire early and go on a continuous global tour while you were still young enough to enjoy it.

rubashov 15y ago
"Imaginary" lines that people fight and die over. Are you really this deluded? Nations exist. People bound together by the land and cultural and genetic heritage is a real thing. Unsurprisingly many people with strong ties to their nation don't see the net benefit of making it especially easy for rootless cosmopolitans to crash in. After all, you can't count on them in a tight spot. They have no loyalty.
- ktizo 15y ago
  People fight and die over a lot of imaginary things. Nations are concepts that exist through a shared belief in the existence of nations. People can be bound together by land and heritage without having had the idea of nations or national borders. Also, while the walls that are put along the imaginary lines may have a reality to themselves, the lines are much more fluid and are unbound to the physical items that represent them. Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire, however the current border between England and Scotland is much further north and is represented by nothing other than the occasional sign and line of paint and for the vast majority of the length of this line has no indication on the ground of its actual whereabouts. [edit] And as far as loyalty goes, loyalty is independent of patriotism and is perfectly capable of transcending geography.
  - arethuza 15y ago
    "Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire" There is another further North - the Antonine wall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall There is quite a lot of Roman infrastructure North of Hadrian's Wall - indeed I had a wander along part of Dere Street last weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street
- kijin 15y ago
  A lot of people who call themselves "citizens" have no loyalty, either. Cultural and genetic heritage exists, but its boundaries are in a mutual feedback relationship with political borders. Culture and genetics might cause political borders to be where they are, but they are also caused and reinforced by where political borders happen to be. (The law makes it difficult for you to travel to America => You're unlikely to be immersed in American culture or marry an American => Your culture and genetics remain very distinct from American culture and genetics => People see no need to facilitate travel to America => Repeat cycle.) So if borders and border control policies changed, the boundaries of cultural and genetic heritage will follow suit, and vice versa. This means you can't just appeal to existing cultural boundaries to argue for some sort of nationalism that perpetuates said boundaries. So although I agree with you that borders aren't completely "imaginary", they're not completely real and static, either.
Retric 15y ago
Imaginary suggests they don't actually exist, but you can actually see a several borders from space. Perhaps you where thinking arbitrary?
- ktizo 15y ago
  You can see rivers, mountain ranges, coasts, valleys and walls. But you can't see national borders, although you can sometimes see things that indicate their approximate currently agreed location, especially where the border has stayed fixed for long enough. But the border can always change tomorrow, or even be in two or more places at once as neighbours do not always agree on such things.
  - zalew 15y ago
    > You can see rivers, mountain ranges, coasts, valleys and walls. But you can't see national borders, Actually, sometimes you can http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/fragileoasis/posts/post_1315437313039.html http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/fragileoasis/posts/post_131543... (definitely worth a read)
    - ktizo 15y ago
      I'd say that he is seeing the physical representation of a border, the border itself being, of necessity, infinitely thin, and therefore very difficult to observe even when fairly close.
  - mc32 15y ago
    >But the border can always change tomorrow, or even be in two or more places at once as neighbours do not always agree on such things. That's true about borders and about many other things in life. Things change in life. We get older every day and thus change. If I took your stance on borders and applied it to a life, I could say, life is uncertain because we are in constant change. Yet, we exist and we plan and so on because we expect there to be some dependability (on things continuing as we know them, for the time being). Just because border lines on maps are the abstract representation of actual boders doesn't mean they do not exist or there is ambiguity about them. With satellite technology and telemetry, borders are pretty exact --with some disputed exceptions. Numbers also don't "exist" in real form, but we know they "exist" and are quite real in other ways.
magoghm 15y ago
Border: In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of the other. (The Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Bierce, 1911)
- ktizo 15y ago
  I love Ambrose Bierce :) PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors. PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.

by ktizo 15y ago

rubashov 15y ago

"Imaginary" lines that people fight and die over. Are you really this deluded? Nations exist. People bound together by the land and cultural and genetic heritage is a real thing. Unsurprisingly many people with strong ties to their nation don't see the net benefit of making it especially easy for rootless cosmopolitans to crash in. After all, you can't count on them in a tight spot. They have no loyalty.

ktizo 15y ago
People fight and die over a lot of imaginary things. Nations are concepts that exist through a shared belief in the existence of nations. People can be bound together by land and heritage without having had the idea of nations or national borders. Also, while the walls that are put along the imaginary lines may have a reality to themselves, the lines are much more fluid and are unbound to the physical items that represent them. Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire, however the current border between England and Scotland is much further north and is represented by nothing other than the occasional sign and line of paint and for the vast majority of the length of this line has no indication on the ground of its actual whereabouts. [edit] And as far as loyalty goes, loyalty is independent of patriotism and is perfectly capable of transcending geography.
- arethuza 15y ago
  "Hadrian's wall is still marking the northern extent of the old Roman Empire" There is another further North - the Antonine wall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall There is quite a lot of Roman infrastructure North of Hadrian's Wall - indeed I had a wander along part of Dere Street last weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dere_Street
kijin 15y ago
A lot of people who call themselves "citizens" have no loyalty, either. Cultural and genetic heritage exists, but its boundaries are in a mutual feedback relationship with political borders. Culture and genetics might cause political borders to be where they are, but they are also caused and reinforced by where political borders happen to be. (The law makes it difficult for you to travel to America => You're unlikely to be immersed in American culture or marry an American => Your culture and genetics remain very distinct from American culture and genetics => People see no need to facilitate travel to America => Repeat cycle.) So if borders and border control policies changed, the boundaries of cultural and genetic heritage will follow suit, and vice versa. This means you can't just appeal to existing cultural boundaries to argue for some sort of nationalism that perpetuates said boundaries. So although I agree with you that borders aren't completely "imaginary", they're not completely real and static, either.

Retric 15y ago

Imaginary suggests they don't actually exist, but you can actually see a several borders from space. Perhaps you where thinking arbitrary?

ktizo 15y ago
You can see rivers, mountain ranges, coasts, valleys and walls. But you can't see national borders, although you can sometimes see things that indicate their approximate currently agreed location, especially where the border has stayed fixed for long enough. But the border can always change tomorrow, or even be in two or more places at once as neighbours do not always agree on such things.
- zalew 15y ago
  > You can see rivers, mountain ranges, coasts, valleys and walls. But you can't see national borders, Actually, sometimes you can http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/fragileoasis/posts/post_1315437313039.html http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/fragileoasis/posts/post_131543... (definitely worth a read)
  - ktizo 15y ago
    I'd say that he is seeing the physical representation of a border, the border itself being, of necessity, infinitely thin, and therefore very difficult to observe even when fairly close.
- mc32 15y ago
  >But the border can always change tomorrow, or even be in two or more places at once as neighbours do not always agree on such things. That's true about borders and about many other things in life. Things change in life. We get older every day and thus change. If I took your stance on borders and applied it to a life, I could say, life is uncertain because we are in constant change. Yet, we exist and we plan and so on because we expect there to be some dependability (on things continuing as we know them, for the time being). Just because border lines on maps are the abstract representation of actual boders doesn't mean they do not exist or there is ambiguity about them. With satellite technology and telemetry, borders are pretty exact --with some disputed exceptions. Numbers also don't "exist" in real form, but we know they "exist" and are quite real in other ways.

magoghm 15y ago

Border: In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of the other. (The Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Bierce, 1911)

ktizo 15y ago
I love Ambrose Bierce :) PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors. PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.