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you know whats unsafe? Getting rid of physical buttons and putting everything on a touch screen with no tactile feedback and constantly changing the position o

you know whats unsafe? Getting rid of physical buttons and putting everything on a touch screen with no tactile feedback and constantly changing the position of things - looking at you tesla. All things considered though: im not likely to buy any new car. I'd rather buy an old and busted early 70s boat, and stuff in modern running gear.

epistasis 3y ago
I was sort of convinced by this argument, theoretically, until I actually experienced the alternative. I've had a Toyota for four years now with all physical switches, but the complexity and number of controls is absolutely mind bogging large. I can't operate these physical switches without looking at inscrutable, small labels in awkward places. A centralized screen which allows clear view of the road at the same time is much safer than stalks with arrays of switches that have 4+ settings. At least when I'm operating it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- slantyyz 3y ago
  I dunno, my 18 year old Honda (and wife's Toyota of same age) is pretty much all physical switches (and that's not counting all the cars I've driven since the late 80s). Outside of the occasional manufacturer idiosyncrasies, my Honda's controls pretty much behave the same way that all my prior cars did too. Yes, there are a lot, but I only use a handful of them at any given time. They work predictably, without any random lags related to CPU load or any other weird stuff that could be related to running a -large- complex operating system. Everything just works, and all the time. -- edit: might want to add that they don't need software upgrades either I would prefer that over a touchscreen any day.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Between cruise control, volumes controls, front wipers, back wipers, camera controls, interior light controls, HVAC, the array is truly bewildering, and I've never been in two cars that were similar unless they had the same manufacturer and were manufactured relatively closely. Now, on my Toyota, though I find the controls bewildering and worse than a well-done screen, I would never ever want Toyota to make a screen based control for these. Their 2019 screen system is laggy, looks like it was built in 2008, and is really not even fit for the purpose of selecting radio stations, much less the wholly inadequate map navigation system they put on it. Or the choice is having a traditional auto maker have switches or a screen, give me switches. If the choice is to have a halfway competent UI and hardware designer give me switches or a screen, give me the screen.
    - slantyyz 3y ago
      If you find that bewildering, maybe it's a generational thing. I've been driving for around 35 years, and I never really found it too hard going from one car to another before the LCD era. At this point, I'm trying to avoid buying a new car, because I don't want a car where I have to put a key in a faraday cage, etc. I don't want to use my phone to unlock my car. To me, these "modern conveniences" have gone so far out of control that they're an inconvenience, and sometimes even dangerous.
brandonagr2 3y ago
Maybe you missed them, but there are actually physical buttons in a Tesla, I use the tactile physical buttons constantly, the scroll wheels to control volume / audio and cruise. The other common buttons are turn signals which are under your left thumb and have tactile feedback. What other buttons are you pushing constantly?
- drdaeman 3y ago
  IIRC, AC controls are only available through the touchscreen, not through any physical dials or buttons. (In my Honda, I operate AC by touch - I remember the physical button layout for the essentials like rear window heating, and the knobs have a grove that can be read by fingers without looking).
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - speedgoose 3y ago
    I understand the argument and read it often on HN. I just want to mention that you can have muscle memory on touchscreen too. If you use a smartphone you probably can write without looking. It’s a bit the same with the car touchscreen. I don’t notice big differences when I aim for a virtual button on the car touchscreen and a physical button. For seldomly used buttons, I give a brief quick look both for virtual and physical.
    - switch007 3y ago
      > I just want to mention that you can have muscle memory on touchscreen too Wish that were true for me.
    - mgarfias 3y ago
      Sure. But 1) they need to stop moving the controls around with every update 2) there’s no tactile feedback- you have to take your eyes off the road to confirm your press worked
nneonneo 3y ago
My Mazda disables the touchscreen once the vehicle is going more than ~10 km/h, yet CarPlay is very usable. It's got a physical knob that rotates through the various on-screen widgets in a fairly predictable order. Most of the apps I use are also good about keeping their CarPlay interfaces very consistent across time, so it's possible to learn the "tab" order by muscle memory and not really need to look at the screen. There's also physical buttons for app switching, for volume controls, voice input, accepting or hanging up calls, and for next/previous music tracks, and in practice those cover enough everyday functionality that I rarely even need to use the selector knob. I feel like I get the benefit of CarPlay (seamless access to my phone's capabilities) with all the niceties of tactile controls too.
- maratc 3y ago
  Mazda are amazing in this sense. In about 2017, my Mazda did what you describe, but starting at about 2019 they don't have any touchscreen at all (at least my current Mazda doesn't). The knob does everything. Mazda, if you're listening: continue doing what you do, and I'll continue buying your cars.

epistasis 3y ago

I was sort of convinced by this argument, theoretically, until I actually experienced the alternative. I've had a Toyota for four years now with all physical switches, but the complexity and number of controls is absolutely mind bogging large. I can't operate these physical switches without looking at inscrutable, small labels in awkward places. A centralized screen which allows clear view of the road at the same time is much safer than stalks with arrays of switches that have 4+ settings. At least when I'm operating it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
slantyyz 3y ago
I dunno, my 18 year old Honda (and wife's Toyota of same age) is pretty much all physical switches (and that's not counting all the cars I've driven since the late 80s). Outside of the occasional manufacturer idiosyncrasies, my Honda's controls pretty much behave the same way that all my prior cars did too. Yes, there are a lot, but I only use a handful of them at any given time. They work predictably, without any random lags related to CPU load or any other weird stuff that could be related to running a -large- complex operating system. Everything just works, and all the time. -- edit: might want to add that they don't need software upgrades either I would prefer that over a touchscreen any day.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Between cruise control, volumes controls, front wipers, back wipers, camera controls, interior light controls, HVAC, the array is truly bewildering, and I've never been in two cars that were similar unless they had the same manufacturer and were manufactured relatively closely. Now, on my Toyota, though I find the controls bewildering and worse than a well-done screen, I would never ever want Toyota to make a screen based control for these. Their 2019 screen system is laggy, looks like it was built in 2008, and is really not even fit for the purpose of selecting radio stations, much less the wholly inadequate map navigation system they put on it. Or the choice is having a traditional auto maker have switches or a screen, give me switches. If the choice is to have a halfway competent UI and hardware designer give me switches or a screen, give me the screen.
  - slantyyz 3y ago
    If you find that bewildering, maybe it's a generational thing. I've been driving for around 35 years, and I never really found it too hard going from one car to another before the LCD era. At this point, I'm trying to avoid buying a new car, because I don't want a car where I have to put a key in a faraday cage, etc. I don't want to use my phone to unlock my car. To me, these "modern conveniences" have gone so far out of control that they're an inconvenience, and sometimes even dangerous.

brandonagr2 3y ago

Maybe you missed them, but there are actually physical buttons in a Tesla, I use the tactile physical buttons constantly, the scroll wheels to control volume / audio and cruise. The other common buttons are turn signals which are under your left thumb and have tactile feedback. What other buttons are you pushing constantly?

drdaeman 3y ago
IIRC, AC controls are only available through the touchscreen, not through any physical dials or buttons. (In my Honda, I operate AC by touch - I remember the physical button layout for the essentials like rear window heating, and the knobs have a grove that can be read by fingers without looking).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- speedgoose 3y ago
  I understand the argument and read it often on HN. I just want to mention that you can have muscle memory on touchscreen too. If you use a smartphone you probably can write without looking. It’s a bit the same with the car touchscreen. I don’t notice big differences when I aim for a virtual button on the car touchscreen and a physical button. For seldomly used buttons, I give a brief quick look both for virtual and physical.
  - switch007 3y ago
    > I just want to mention that you can have muscle memory on touchscreen too Wish that were true for me.
  - mgarfias 3y ago
    Sure. But 1) they need to stop moving the controls around with every update 2) there’s no tactile feedback- you have to take your eyes off the road to confirm your press worked

nneonneo 3y ago

My Mazda disables the touchscreen once the vehicle is going more than ~10 km/h, yet CarPlay is very usable. It's got a physical knob that rotates through the various on-screen widgets in a fairly predictable order. Most of the apps I use are also good about keeping their CarPlay interfaces very consistent across time, so it's possible to learn the "tab" order by muscle memory and not really need to look at the screen. There's also physical buttons for app switching, for volume controls, voice input, accepting or hanging up calls, and for next/previous music tracks, and in practice those cover enough everyday functionality that I rarely even need to use the selector knob. I feel like I get the benefit of CarPlay (seamless access to my phone's capabilities) with all the niceties of tactile controls too.

maratc 3y ago
Mazda are amazing in this sense. In about 2017, my Mazda did what you describe, but starting at about 2019 they don't have any touchscreen at all (at least my current Mazda doesn't). The knob does everything. Mazda, if you're listening: continue doing what you do, and I'll continue buying your cars.