3 ms·

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems i am willin

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

troupo 3y ago
Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  what do you mean?
  - troupo 3y ago
    Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.
    - recursivedoubts 3y ago
      Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition. Maybe you disagree w/ it, but it's at least defensible, no? As far as what it has to do w/ htmx, htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia, making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. (This is in contrast w/ something like React, which typically uses a fixed-format non-hypermedia data API to communicate w/ the server.) I understand you don't like the somewhat crazy social media presence of htmx, but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.
      - troupo 3y ago
        > Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear definition. It's a string of words that make zero to no sense. What is an "element in a hypermedia"? > htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia This sentence also makes no sense > making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. Neither is true. HTMX limits all exchanges to HTML, and HTML only, and then clearly separates whatever HTML it accepts and "JSON Data APIs" into two separate entites. Doesn't make them hypermedia. > but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia. But it's not. It's slapped on with al the confidence of a teenager who discovered a new word and now uses it everywhere. Hypermedia isn't "we do REST requests and get HTML back" or "we separated HTML and JSON into two separate APIs, these are now hypermedia elements in hypermedia as we've extended HTML as hypermedia". Just because you repeat something a hundred times, doesn't make it so. They even mention HATEOAS a few times as if it had something to do with HTMX and literally throw it out of the window. Edit: They even completely misrepresented Roy Fielding's REST paper by pretending it only applies to HTML and claiming this somehow reflects the original idea behind the dissertation
        recursivedoubts 3y ago
        :) Here's what Fielding says: "When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information and controls such that the information becomes the affordance through which the user obtains choices and selects actions" htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, which is laid out pretty clearly in chapter 3. You might say it's a bad generalization, or generalizing hypermedia controls in general is a bad idea, but it's pretty straight forward: - generalize the event that triggers the request - generalize the HTML element that can issue the request - generalize the type of HTTP request that can be made - generalize the way the response can be placed in the page I don't think it's reasonable to say that we pretend REST only applies to HTML when we present a completely different hypermedia, Hyperview, in our book as an example of a REST-ful system: https://hypermedia.systems/hyperview-a-mobile-hypermedia/ https://hypermedia.systems/hyperview-a-mobile-hypermedia/ It appears that you really don't like me at a personal level, which I understand: I don't like myself a lot of the time. However, i think if you stepped back from that fact, you'd see you are being a bit unreasonable here.
WeAddValue 3y ago
As a counter-example, how many have heard of unpoly.com, another hypermedia-based framework but without the memes and shit-slinging?
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  Well, i had a pretty good A/B test w/ intercooler and then htmx (intercooler 2.0): https://star-history.com/embed#bigskysoftware/htmx&bigskysoftware/intercooler-js&Date https://star-history.com/embed#bigskysoftware/htmx&bigskysof... at the end of the day, i enjoy memes and shoot-posting and, as they say, to thine own self be true.
neilyio 3y ago
This book has been one of my favorite reads of the year. Thank you for it. I'm not sure why so much of this thread takes offense to your work. HTMX has been transformational for me. I'm grateful that you persevere.

troupo 3y ago

Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.

recursivedoubts 3y ago
what do you mean?
- troupo 3y ago
  Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.
  - recursivedoubts 3y ago
    Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition. Maybe you disagree w/ it, but it's at least defensible, no? As far as what it has to do w/ htmx, htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia, making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. (This is in contrast w/ something like React, which typically uses a fixed-format non-hypermedia data API to communicate w/ the server.) I understand you don't like the somewhat crazy social media presence of htmx, but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.
    - troupo 3y ago
      > Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear definition. It's a string of words that make zero to no sense. What is an "element in a hypermedia"? > htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia This sentence also makes no sense > making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. Neither is true. HTMX limits all exchanges to HTML, and HTML only, and then clearly separates whatever HTML it accepts and "JSON Data APIs" into two separate entites. Doesn't make them hypermedia. > but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia. But it's not. It's slapped on with al the confidence of a teenager who discovered a new word and now uses it everywhere. Hypermedia isn't "we do REST requests and get HTML back" or "we separated HTML and JSON into two separate APIs, these are now hypermedia elements in hypermedia as we've extended HTML as hypermedia". Just because you repeat something a hundred times, doesn't make it so. They even mention HATEOAS a few times as if it had something to do with HTMX and literally throw it out of the window. Edit: They even completely misrepresented Roy Fielding's REST paper by pretending it only applies to HTML and claiming this somehow reflects the original idea behind the dissertation
      - recursivedoubts 3y ago
        :) Here's what Fielding says: "When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information and controls such that the information becomes the affordance through which the user obtains choices and selects actions" htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, which is laid out pretty clearly in chapter 3. You might say it's a bad generalization, or generalizing hypermedia controls in general is a bad idea, but it's pretty straight forward: - generalize the event that triggers the request - generalize the HTML element that can issue the request - generalize the type of HTTP request that can be made - generalize the way the response can be placed in the page I don't think it's reasonable to say that we pretend REST only applies to HTML when we present a completely different hypermedia, Hyperview, in our book as an example of a REST-ful system: https://hypermedia.systems/hyperview-a-mobile-hypermedia/ https://hypermedia.systems/hyperview-a-mobile-hypermedia/ It appears that you really don't like me at a personal level, which I understand: I don't like myself a lot of the time. However, i think if you stepped back from that fact, you'd see you are being a bit unreasonable here.

WeAddValue 3y ago

As a counter-example, how many have heard of unpoly.com, another hypermedia-based framework but without the memes and shit-slinging?

recursivedoubts 3y ago
Well, i had a pretty good A/B test w/ intercooler and then htmx (intercooler 2.0): https://star-history.com/embed#bigskysoftware/htmx&bigskysoftware/intercooler-js&Date https://star-history.com/embed#bigskysoftware/htmx&bigskysof... at the end of the day, i enjoy memes and shoot-posting and, as they say, to thine own self be true.

neilyio 3y ago

This book has been one of my favorite reads of the year. Thank you for it. I'm not sure why so much of this thread takes offense to your work. HTMX has been transformational for me. I'm grateful that you persevere.