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Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Israeli Arabs are represented in th

Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Israeli Arabs are represented in the knesset and have equal rights to any Israeli citizens. (Although in places like East Jerusalem which is neither Israeli nor West Bank, they are treated halfway in terms of security restrictions or building rights, which is where most of the accusations of discrimination come from.) Hamas are not freedom fighters of oppression. They are an implacable anti-semitic bloodthirsty terrorist group who murder and oppress Palestinians as well as Israelis. The true resolution is for Palestinians to give up on the idea of destroying Israel proper and cease the non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today, which in turn will result in no need to monitor and control against these constant threats on Israeli lives. Hamas killed Bedouin Arabs on October 7th too. Even according to the way you wish to view the conflict, after the 2005 disengagement from Gaza, what excuse did Hamas have to commit murders of Israeli civilians?

Aerbil313 3y ago
> non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today Jews, Christians and Muslims in the area were coexisting peacefully under Ottoman rule. I wonder what happened to result in this situation? Possibly illegal settlements? Ever heard of The Nakba? Also, zionist Jews view even Americans less than human: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq28ZFNzaWM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq28ZFNzaWM
SauciestGNU 3y ago
I've got a question for you. When you say that Israeli Arabs are represented and citizens, why do you ignore the residents of Gaza and the West Bank, who are subject to Israeli military rule and/or blockade and have no representation in the government. Palestinians have been made stateless by Israel, but if they are functionally subject to Israeli apartheid and martial law within their "own borders" then sovereignty is a fiction is it not?
- edanm 3y ago
  I can't vote in the United States. Does that make the United States and apartheid regime? Of course not, I'm not a US citizen. The Palestinians who stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens, and have all the same rights as other Israelis. The Palestinians who fled Israel (by choice or force), did not become citizens. They were refugees for 20 years before Israel had control over them (and in that time were not granted citizenship in any other neighboring country, nor were they given the option to create their own state by the then-occupiers of that land). The situation in the West Bank is indeed complicated, but the agreed-upon-by-all-sides solution is that it will eventually become a separate state (the two state solution). So it doesn't make much sense to wonder why they don't get voting rights in Israel - they are not citizens, and the agreed-upon path is for them to have their own state, not become citizens. In Gaza the situation is much simpler - Israel doesn't occupy it anymore (or didn't before October 7th, no idea what will happen now). You throw in the word blockade as if that's the same thing as Israeli control over Gaza, but it's not. The blockade was a legitimate response to Hamas carrying out attacks on Israel. Sovereign nations likewise sanction and/or blockade other countries for these kinds of attacks. Does the US have control over Iran because of the sanctions it imposes? Is Iran not free?
  - Qem 3y ago
    > I can't vote in the United States. Does that make the United States and apartheid regime? Of course not, I'm not a US citizen. The attempts to characterize Palestinians as foreigners to deny apartheid are appalling. By that logic, South Africa could have solved apartheid by declaring itself a whites-only country, changing constitution, so every black person could be labeled "foreigner", even if belonging to families born and living in the land for generations. The only acceptable way to solve apartheid is by ending it, not fixing the dictionary to change the meaning of words like foreigner.
    - edanm 3y ago
      But that's a completely different situation! Palestinian were never citizens of Israel. For the first twenty years of Israel's existence, they were refugees militarily controlled by other countries. So they are foreigners. You might think the founding of Israel was itself an injustice, that there was ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, etc. Those are valid views (and I think they do have some merit, though less than most people think). But you can't say that there is no difference between Palestinians that stayed during the founding of Israel and were granted citizenship, and between the Palestinians who fled to neighboring countries that proceeded to attack Israel hoping to get all the land, and then lost the war and the land.
covercash 3y ago
> Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Never said all Israelis, just Netanyahu and his ilk, the ones in charge. Some are on record calling Palestinians animals. And if you listen to how they (Bibi and crew, plus IDF officials in interviews) talk about Palestinians, it’s pretty clear they view them as enemies not humans, hence my “less than” comment. There are also some lovely man-on-the-street interviews with random Israelis in Tel Aviv saying some pretty gross things if you want some civilian opinions too. > Israeli Arabs are represented in the knesset and have equal rights to any Israeli citizens. (Although in places like East Jerusalem which is neither Israeli nor West Bank, they are treated halfway in terms of security restrictions or building rights, which is where most of the accusations of discrimination come from.) So the different forms of IDs, different license plates, court systems, etc. are all so the occupying force know to treat them with extra super equality? I’m surprised they don’t have separate water fountains and restrooms. > Hamas are not freedom fighters of oppression. They are an implacable anti-semitic bloodthirsty terrorist group who murder and oppress Palestinians as well as Israelis. Never said they were freedom fighters, more like a natural reactionary response. I just think that if you put any group of people in an open air prison for long enough, you’re bound to get some… push back. There’s a Chris Rock line that nails the sentiment…“I don’t agree, but I understand.” > The true resolution is for Palestinians to give up on the idea of destroying Israel proper and cease the non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today, which in turn will result in no need to monitor and control against these constant threats on Israeli lives. Hamas killed Bedouin Arabs on October 7th too. The true resolution is for Israelis to give up on the idea of pushing Palestinians out of Israel and ceasing the apartheid, which in turn will give Palestinians hope and a fair shot at life, that will then cause Hamas to naturally dissolve since it will no longer serve any purpose. Israel killed Israelis in Gaza bombings since October 7th too. > Even according to the way you wish to view the conflict, after the 2005 disengagement from Gaza, what excuse did Hamas have to commit murders of Israeli civilians? Any reasonable human knows there is no excuse to murder anyone, but civilians especially. I can ask the same thing of you… since 2005 and excluding random IDF sniper picks, settler kills, and the post-October 7 bombings (because those would just wipe the floor with your numbers), what excuse did Israel have to commit murder of over 3000 Palestinian civilians? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_wa...) They owe Israel a lot more if you’re keeping score… I don’t wish to view things any way, I do view things through my own lived experiences just like everyone else. But I also spend a good amount of time trying to imagine things from other perspectives. To get an idea of where my perspective comes from in this whole conversation, one thing I strongly believe is that those in power hold the majority of responsibility. I know there are a lot of complicated layers to this discussion but I always come back to that.
hbt 3y ago
Here is your own newspaper documenting the treatment of "Israeli Arabs" (Palestinians who were allowed to stay in Israel) https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-ma... Over 60 discriminatory laws exist, here is a few passed between 2009-2012 alone https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws_and_bills_English.pdf https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws... You can read more about the systemic 2nd class treatment of "Israeli Arabs" here https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-israel https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-... Most links refer to zionist newspapers and laws in case you need more references.

Aerbil313 3y ago

> non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today Jews, Christians and Muslims in the area were coexisting peacefully under Ottoman rule. I wonder what happened to result in this situation? Possibly illegal settlements? Ever heard of The Nakba? Also, zionist Jews view even Americans less than human: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq28ZFNzaWM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq28ZFNzaWM

SauciestGNU 3y ago

I've got a question for you. When you say that Israeli Arabs are represented and citizens, why do you ignore the residents of Gaza and the West Bank, who are subject to Israeli military rule and/or blockade and have no representation in the government. Palestinians have been made stateless by Israel, but if they are functionally subject to Israeli apartheid and martial law within their "own borders" then sovereignty is a fiction is it not?

edanm 3y ago
I can't vote in the United States. Does that make the United States and apartheid regime? Of course not, I'm not a US citizen. The Palestinians who stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens, and have all the same rights as other Israelis. The Palestinians who fled Israel (by choice or force), did not become citizens. They were refugees for 20 years before Israel had control over them (and in that time were not granted citizenship in any other neighboring country, nor were they given the option to create their own state by the then-occupiers of that land). The situation in the West Bank is indeed complicated, but the agreed-upon-by-all-sides solution is that it will eventually become a separate state (the two state solution). So it doesn't make much sense to wonder why they don't get voting rights in Israel - they are not citizens, and the agreed-upon path is for them to have their own state, not become citizens. In Gaza the situation is much simpler - Israel doesn't occupy it anymore (or didn't before October 7th, no idea what will happen now). You throw in the word blockade as if that's the same thing as Israeli control over Gaza, but it's not. The blockade was a legitimate response to Hamas carrying out attacks on Israel. Sovereign nations likewise sanction and/or blockade other countries for these kinds of attacks. Does the US have control over Iran because of the sanctions it imposes? Is Iran not free?
- Qem 3y ago
  > I can't vote in the United States. Does that make the United States and apartheid regime? Of course not, I'm not a US citizen. The attempts to characterize Palestinians as foreigners to deny apartheid are appalling. By that logic, South Africa could have solved apartheid by declaring itself a whites-only country, changing constitution, so every black person could be labeled "foreigner", even if belonging to families born and living in the land for generations. The only acceptable way to solve apartheid is by ending it, not fixing the dictionary to change the meaning of words like foreigner.
  - edanm 3y ago
    But that's a completely different situation! Palestinian were never citizens of Israel. For the first twenty years of Israel's existence, they were refugees militarily controlled by other countries. So they are foreigners. You might think the founding of Israel was itself an injustice, that there was ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, etc. Those are valid views (and I think they do have some merit, though less than most people think). But you can't say that there is no difference between Palestinians that stayed during the founding of Israel and were granted citizenship, and between the Palestinians who fled to neighboring countries that proceeded to attack Israel hoping to get all the land, and then lost the war and the land.

covercash 3y ago

> Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Never said all Israelis, just Netanyahu and his ilk, the ones in charge. Some are on record calling Palestinians animals. And if you listen to how they (Bibi and crew, plus IDF officials in interviews) talk about Palestinians, it’s pretty clear they view them as enemies not humans, hence my “less than” comment. There are also some lovely man-on-the-street interviews with random Israelis in Tel Aviv saying some pretty gross things if you want some civilian opinions too. > Israeli Arabs are represented in the knesset and have equal rights to any Israeli citizens. (Although in places like East Jerusalem which is neither Israeli nor West Bank, they are treated halfway in terms of security restrictions or building rights, which is where most of the accusations of discrimination come from.) So the different forms of IDs, different license plates, court systems, etc. are all so the occupying force know to treat them with extra super equality? I’m surprised they don’t have separate water fountains and restrooms. > Hamas are not freedom fighters of oppression. They are an implacable anti-semitic bloodthirsty terrorist group who murder and oppress Palestinians as well as Israelis. Never said they were freedom fighters, more like a natural reactionary response. I just think that if you put any group of people in an open air prison for long enough, you’re bound to get some… push back. There’s a Chris Rock line that nails the sentiment…“I don’t agree, but I understand.” > The true resolution is for Palestinians to give up on the idea of destroying Israel proper and cease the non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today, which in turn will result in no need to monitor and control against these constant threats on Israeli lives. Hamas killed Bedouin Arabs on October 7th too. The true resolution is for Israelis to give up on the idea of pushing Palestinians out of Israel and ceasing the apartheid, which in turn will give Palestinians hope and a fair shot at life, that will then cause Hamas to naturally dissolve since it will no longer serve any purpose. Israel killed Israelis in Gaza bombings since October 7th too. > Even according to the way you wish to view the conflict, after the 2005 disengagement from Gaza, what excuse did Hamas have to commit murders of Israeli civilians? Any reasonable human knows there is no excuse to murder anyone, but civilians especially. I can ask the same thing of you… since 2005 and excluding random IDF sniper picks, settler kills, and the post-October 7 bombings (because those would just wipe the floor with your numbers), what excuse did Israel have to commit murder of over 3000 Palestinian civilians? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_wa...) They owe Israel a lot more if you’re keeping score… I don’t wish to view things any way, I do view things through my own lived experiences just like everyone else. But I also spend a good amount of time trying to imagine things from other perspectives. To get an idea of where my perspective comes from in this whole conversation, one thing I strongly believe is that those in power hold the majority of responsibility. I know there are a lot of complicated layers to this discussion but I always come back to that.

hbt 3y ago

Here is your own newspaper documenting the treatment of "Israeli Arabs" (Palestinians who were allowed to stay in Israel) https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-ma... Over 60 discriminatory laws exist, here is a few passed between 2009-2012 alone https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws_and_bills_English.pdf https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws... You can read more about the systemic 2nd class treatment of "Israeli Arabs" here https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-israel https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-... Most links refer to zionist newspapers and laws in case you need more references.