5 ms·

There are two sides - ordinary people on both sides, who mostly just want it all to stop, and the leaders on both sides, who want it to continue. (As do arms de

There are two sides - ordinary people on both sides, who mostly just want it all to stop, and the leaders on both sides, who want it to continue. (As do arms dealers.) The ordinary people have far more in common with each other than they do with the leaders who are keeping this war running.

mqp 3y ago
There are no 2 sides. There is an oppressor and the oppressed. The coloniser and the colonised. The occupation and the occupied.
- salawat 3y ago
  >There are no 2 sides. >Go on to break everything down into two sided relationships. Remember poster: Despite the Romulan's insistence, There...are...four...lights!
  - mqp 3y ago
    2 sides implies equal footing. Especially as many equate this to a war. This isn't a war, it's a genocide. But joke about it. Who cares? Just a bunch of people out of sight, out of mind, getting blown to bits day in day out. Hilarious isn't it.
colechristensen 3y ago
60% of surveyed Palestinians “extremely supported” the military actions on Jan 7, an additional 15% somewhat supported. This was research done by Palestinians based locally. There is a lot of hopeful thinking about humanity being conjured out of thin air, evidence on the ground is to the contrary. Many people on the ground support the conflict and expect to win. A great majority of Palestinians supported the attacks in January. A great majority of Israelis insist on a military response taken to its conclusion. This is not the case of peoples being held hostage by their leaders. They might not like their leaders but they would put new ones in power who were substantially the same. https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/ https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-vie... https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...
- vidarh 3y ago
  And before that 70% wanted control of Gaza to be taken away from Hamas, and a majority opposed breaking the ceasefire: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-sh... Consider that asking about support for Hamas attacks once the retaliation has stoked up hate is inherently going to be strongly affected by views shaped by the large-scale invasion and bombing, especially when a portion of those polled were in the war zone. Now consider the extent to which provoking this kind of reaction was Hamas' goal in light of polls showing people wanting them out in a situation where their legitimacy as a political leadership kept dropping with each year without another election. > This is not the case of peoples being held hostage by their leaders. They might not like their leaders but they would put new ones in power who were substantially the same. After this? Maybe. Before this, the poll above shows people wanted them out, per above. Which might make one want to ask why the Israeli leadership is so easy to goad into over-reaction and what that says about the extent to which they want peace, because given the sharp but predictable changes in polling this reaction is clearly entirely counter-productive.
  - devenvdev 3y ago
    For the same reason I wish people would stop call it overreaction. As far as I see from inside Israel the reaction is considered spot-on by majority.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      Overreaction is the mildest thing I'd call it. It's an ongoing series of brutal war crimes, and if it's true that the reaction is considered spot-on that does not make it more justified. At the same time, it is a demonstration of exactly why this reaction is counter-productive, because you can expect that exact same anger to grow in a Palestinian population where the vast majority had nothing to do with the attacks, nor have ever voted for - or even had a chance to vote for - Hamas (~80% of the current population of Gaza were either not born or not of voting age when Hamas won a minority of the vote), and who before this wanted Hamas out. Expect to see a massive resurgence in support for Hamas and even more extreme groups, and the net outcome being to have made Israel's security situation significantly worse. It has also massively damaged support and sympathy for Israel internationally. E.g. many political forums I'm in used to see it as distasteful or too extreme to describe Israel as an apartheid state just a couple of years ago, while it is a widely supported view today, and the Israeli reaction is regularly described as ethnic cleansing with little opposition to the use of that term. Put another way: Hamas has gotten exactly what it wanted out of this, and Israel has harmed its case and harmed its security massively. If I were to make a prediction, it would be that unless Israel massively changes direction very quickly, the Israeli response to the Hamas attacks will contribute to making resistance to the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement start to crumble.

mqp 3y ago

There are no 2 sides. There is an oppressor and the oppressed. The coloniser and the colonised. The occupation and the occupied.

salawat 3y ago
>There are no 2 sides. >Go on to break everything down into two sided relationships. Remember poster: Despite the Romulan's insistence, There...are...four...lights!
- mqp 3y ago
  2 sides implies equal footing. Especially as many equate this to a war. This isn't a war, it's a genocide. But joke about it. Who cares? Just a bunch of people out of sight, out of mind, getting blown to bits day in day out. Hilarious isn't it.

colechristensen 3y ago

60% of surveyed Palestinians “extremely supported” the military actions on Jan 7, an additional 15% somewhat supported. This was research done by Palestinians based locally. There is a lot of hopeful thinking about humanity being conjured out of thin air, evidence on the ground is to the contrary. Many people on the ground support the conflict and expect to win. A great majority of Palestinians supported the attacks in January. A great majority of Israelis insist on a military response taken to its conclusion. This is not the case of peoples being held hostage by their leaders. They might not like their leaders but they would put new ones in power who were substantially the same. https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/ https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-vie... https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...

vidarh 3y ago
And before that 70% wanted control of Gaza to be taken away from Hamas, and a majority opposed breaking the ceasefire: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-sh... Consider that asking about support for Hamas attacks once the retaliation has stoked up hate is inherently going to be strongly affected by views shaped by the large-scale invasion and bombing, especially when a portion of those polled were in the war zone. Now consider the extent to which provoking this kind of reaction was Hamas' goal in light of polls showing people wanting them out in a situation where their legitimacy as a political leadership kept dropping with each year without another election. > This is not the case of peoples being held hostage by their leaders. They might not like their leaders but they would put new ones in power who were substantially the same. After this? Maybe. Before this, the poll above shows people wanted them out, per above. Which might make one want to ask why the Israeli leadership is so easy to goad into over-reaction and what that says about the extent to which they want peace, because given the sharp but predictable changes in polling this reaction is clearly entirely counter-productive.
- devenvdev 3y ago
  For the same reason I wish people would stop call it overreaction. As far as I see from inside Israel the reaction is considered spot-on by majority.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Overreaction is the mildest thing I'd call it. It's an ongoing series of brutal war crimes, and if it's true that the reaction is considered spot-on that does not make it more justified. At the same time, it is a demonstration of exactly why this reaction is counter-productive, because you can expect that exact same anger to grow in a Palestinian population where the vast majority had nothing to do with the attacks, nor have ever voted for - or even had a chance to vote for - Hamas (~80% of the current population of Gaza were either not born or not of voting age when Hamas won a minority of the vote), and who before this wanted Hamas out. Expect to see a massive resurgence in support for Hamas and even more extreme groups, and the net outcome being to have made Israel's security situation significantly worse. It has also massively damaged support and sympathy for Israel internationally. E.g. many political forums I'm in used to see it as distasteful or too extreme to describe Israel as an apartheid state just a couple of years ago, while it is a widely supported view today, and the Israeli reaction is regularly described as ethnic cleansing with little opposition to the use of that term. Put another way: Hamas has gotten exactly what it wanted out of this, and Israel has harmed its case and harmed its security massively. If I were to make a prediction, it would be that unless Israel massively changes direction very quickly, the Israeli response to the Hamas attacks will contribute to making resistance to the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement start to crumble.