4 ms·

Obviously this depends on who you're listening to. Certainly, the chants for a ceasefire right now because there are civilian deaths in Gaza can be a way of ho

by edanm 3y ago

Obviously this depends on who you're listening to. Certainly, the chants for a ceasefire right now because there are civilian deaths in Gaza can be a way of holding Israel to impossible standards. No country on Earth can wage war without civilians being killed, so unless you believe that Israel isn't entitled to wage war against Hamas in this situation, it's not clear what a call for ceasefire means - Israel should just surrender? Also, it's hard to tell how much of this is a Twitter bubble vs not, but the amount of people calling what Israel is doing genocide is very large (despite this being completely wrong), and many people are saying something to the effect of "nothing at all makes it ok to kill civilians", see above what that kind of statement means.

nielsbot 3y ago
This is a false all-or-nothing take. It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. Here's one UN statement from weeks ago: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... What about bombing places where the US said there were aid groups? https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel-data-on-aid-group-locations-to-try-to-prevent-strikes-00128336 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel... What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel.
- edanm 3y ago
  > It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Completely agree. > Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. Disagree. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "refugee camps" here (since in some situation all of Gaza is referred to as a "Refugee camp"). Second, they are definitely destorying housing, but that's because Hamas militans are hiding in that housing. What is the alternative? Israel asked the people to evacuate and gave a a lot of time to evacuate those buildings, despite this allowing Hamas militants to evacuate as well, exactly to minimize casualties. And Israel hasn't destroyed hospitals as far as I'm aware, despite many people thinking so. > They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. This should by itself invalidate your statement that it's incautiously bombing. If the amount of bombing is so large, how are there so few civilian deaths compared to other conflicts? > We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. There is not intent to kill all the Palestinians. The reason we know there's no such intent is that if Israel truy were trying to do it, far far more civilians would've been killed. You can see that in every conflict in which a country really did go all-out and didn't care about deaths. (E.g. Syrian war, 600k dead, various actual genocides that have happened, etc.) Ethnic cleansing - for sure the current population of North Gaza was asked to vacate to the South. You can call that temporary ethnic cleansing if you want, I don't think it fits. If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans, they all are able to go back to the North - then it wouldn't really be ethnic cleansing. (There is the issue of many of their homes having been demolished - which is a clearer case for ethnic cleansing - but I still think it falls under the umbrella of justified attacks, but I also think Israel should do something to help the people made homeless.) > What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel. It's fighting a war. All wars are cruel. Israel didn't want this war, Hamas did. And Israel doesn't really have an alternative.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    The experts disagree with you. It is incautious. Even Biden (a self-proclamed Zionist) thinks so: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/world/middleeast/us-criticizes-israel-for-indiscriminate-bombing-in-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/world/middleeast/us-criti... And by refugee camp, I mean literally refugee camp. (That "some people" call all of Gaza a refugee camp doesn't matter here) Here's one: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-explanation-of-some-airstrikes-in-gaza-00125294 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-.... You don't have to kill all the Gazans for attacks to be "genocidal". But see what the experts say. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... There's also this article in Time: https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/ https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-ex... > If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans I am certainly not holding my breath for this. Innocents dying is a fact of war and war is cruel but Israel's handling of this has been especially cruel--happening on top of their years long blockading and imprisonment of Gazans. Maybe entertain the possibility that Israel may not, in fact, be being righteous.

by edanm 3y ago

nielsbot 3y ago

This is a false all-or-nothing take. It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. Here's one UN statement from weeks ago: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... What about bombing places where the US said there were aid groups? https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel-data-on-aid-group-locations-to-try-to-prevent-strikes-00128336 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel... What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel.

edanm 3y ago
> It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Completely agree. > Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. Disagree. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "refugee camps" here (since in some situation all of Gaza is referred to as a "Refugee camp"). Second, they are definitely destorying housing, but that's because Hamas militans are hiding in that housing. What is the alternative? Israel asked the people to evacuate and gave a a lot of time to evacuate those buildings, despite this allowing Hamas militants to evacuate as well, exactly to minimize casualties. And Israel hasn't destroyed hospitals as far as I'm aware, despite many people thinking so. > They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. This should by itself invalidate your statement that it's incautiously bombing. If the amount of bombing is so large, how are there so few civilian deaths compared to other conflicts? > We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. There is not intent to kill all the Palestinians. The reason we know there's no such intent is that if Israel truy were trying to do it, far far more civilians would've been killed. You can see that in every conflict in which a country really did go all-out and didn't care about deaths. (E.g. Syrian war, 600k dead, various actual genocides that have happened, etc.) Ethnic cleansing - for sure the current population of North Gaza was asked to vacate to the South. You can call that temporary ethnic cleansing if you want, I don't think it fits. If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans, they all are able to go back to the North - then it wouldn't really be ethnic cleansing. (There is the issue of many of their homes having been demolished - which is a clearer case for ethnic cleansing - but I still think it falls under the umbrella of justified attacks, but I also think Israel should do something to help the people made homeless.) > What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel. It's fighting a war. All wars are cruel. Israel didn't want this war, Hamas did. And Israel doesn't really have an alternative.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  The experts disagree with you. It is incautious. Even Biden (a self-proclamed Zionist) thinks so: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/world/middleeast/us-criticizes-israel-for-indiscriminate-bombing-in-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/world/middleeast/us-criti... And by refugee camp, I mean literally refugee camp. (That "some people" call all of Gaza a refugee camp doesn't matter here) Here's one: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-explanation-of-some-airstrikes-in-gaza-00125294 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-.... You don't have to kill all the Gazans for attacks to be "genocidal". But see what the experts say. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... There's also this article in Time: https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/ https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-ex... > If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans I am certainly not holding my breath for this. Innocents dying is a fact of war and war is cruel but Israel's handling of this has been especially cruel--happening on top of their years long blockading and imprisonment of Gazans. Maybe entertain the possibility that Israel may not, in fact, be being righteous.