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I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the

by troupo 3y ago

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

meowtimemania 3y ago
HTMX is really pleasant to work with and in many cases means getting stuff done with way less code. I have an internal tool built with React and replaced it with HTMX. The HTMX version is much simpler and easier to add features. HTMX doesn't make sense for all use cases, but sometimes it's all around a better choice than something like React.
c-cube 3y ago
It's related to hypermedia though? The whole point is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html) instead of json. How is that not related?
- troupo 3y ago
  > is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html) This has nothing to do with hypermedia. You can return json, xml, pdf, or binary and be 100% hypermedia-driven.
recursivedoubts 3y ago
if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)
- troupo 3y ago
  Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.
  - recursivedoubts 3y ago
    what do you mean?
    - troupo 3y ago
      Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.
      - recursivedoubts 3y ago
        Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition. Maybe you disagree w/ it, but it's at least defensible, no? As far as what it has to do w/ htmx, htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia, making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. (This is in contrast w/ something like React, which typically uses a fixed-format non-hypermedia data API to communicate w/ the server.) I understand you don't like the somewhat crazy social media presence of htmx, but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.
        troupo 3y ago
        > Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear definition. It's a string of words that make zero to no sense. What is an "element in a hypermedia"? > htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia This sentence also makes no sense > making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. Neither is true. HTMX limits all exchanges to HTML, and HTML only, and then clearly separates whatever HTML it accepts and "JSON Data APIs" into two separate entites. Doesn't make them hypermedia. > but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia. But it's not. It's slapped on with al the confidence of a teenager who discovered a new word and now uses it everywhere. Hypermedia isn't "we do REST requests and get HTML back" or "we separated HTML and JSON into two separate APIs, these are now hypermedia elements in hypermedia as we've extended HTML as hypermedia". Just because you repeat something a hundred times, doesn't make it so. They even mention HATEOAS a few times as if it had something to do with HTMX and literally throw it out of the window. Edit: They even completely misrepresented Roy Fielding's REST paper by pretending it only applies to HTML and claiming this somehow reflects the original idea behind the dissertation

by troupo 3y ago

meowtimemania 3y ago

HTMX is really pleasant to work with and in many cases means getting stuff done with way less code. I have an internal tool built with React and replaced it with HTMX. The HTMX version is much simpler and easier to add features. HTMX doesn't make sense for all use cases, but sometimes it's all around a better choice than something like React.

c-cube 3y ago

It's related to hypermedia though? The whole point is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html) instead of json. How is that not related?

troupo 3y ago
> is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html) This has nothing to do with hypermedia. You can return json, xml, pdf, or binary and be 100% hypermedia-driven.

recursivedoubts 3y ago

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

troupo 3y ago
Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  what do you mean?
  - troupo 3y ago
    Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.
    - recursivedoubts 3y ago
      Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition. Maybe you disagree w/ it, but it's at least defensible, no? As far as what it has to do w/ htmx, htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia, making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. (This is in contrast w/ something like React, which typically uses a fixed-format non-hypermedia data API to communicate w/ the server.) I understand you don't like the somewhat crazy social media presence of htmx, but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.
      - troupo 3y ago
        > Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear definition. It's a string of words that make zero to no sense. What is an "element in a hypermedia"? > htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia This sentence also makes no sense > making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. Neither is true. HTMX limits all exchanges to HTML, and HTML only, and then clearly separates whatever HTML it accepts and "JSON Data APIs" into two separate entites. Doesn't make them hypermedia. > but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia. But it's not. It's slapped on with al the confidence of a teenager who discovered a new word and now uses it everywhere. Hypermedia isn't "we do REST requests and get HTML back" or "we separated HTML and JSON into two separate APIs, these are now hypermedia elements in hypermedia as we've extended HTML as hypermedia". Just because you repeat something a hundred times, doesn't make it so. They even mention HATEOAS a few times as if it had something to do with HTMX and literally throw it out of the window. Edit: They even completely misrepresented Roy Fielding's REST paper by pretending it only applies to HTML and claiming this somehow reflects the original idea behind the dissertation