17 ms·

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. T

by prmph 3y ago

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy". Any close reading of this conflicts shows that it is an ideological conflict. Hamas and their supporters in Gaza actually prefer that Gaza becomes a hellhole, to rally allies to their side. Do you really think they want a peaceful and prosperous Gaza? No, they want to blow up the conflict, to energize it, to force a reckoning, with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter. Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave?

__blockcipher__ 3y ago
I don't really feel like clearing up all the half-truths or outright lies here, but I wanted to just call out one: > with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter. The "from the river to the sea" is the language in the Likud charter, the party ruling Israel and dropping thousands of 2-ton bombs on Gaza right now. The popular chant "from the river to the sea palestine will be free" is a direct response to that. I'm unaware of Hamas' charter using the "from the river to the sea" language, although I'm open for correction here because I have not read the entire charter.
- prmph 3y ago
  Are you claiming ignorance of the fact that the Hamas charter originally called for the liquidation of Israel? This is common knowledge. Granted, they have revised it recently to tone down the genocidal language, but I don't think anybody should be deceived about what their intentions are. As the history of the slogan "from the river to the sea", please read on it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea, it has little to do with Likud.
  - avtar 3y ago
    > it has little to do with Likud. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... "The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
    - devenvdev 3y ago
      An easy check gives that Likud was formed in 70s while the phrase was popularized in 60s by pro-Palestinian movements. Not that it makes this "who's invented the phrase" argument less of a strawman.
mikojan 3y ago
> Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave? That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.
- prmph 3y ago
  By "Pack up their bags and leave" I meant, do Israelis have to vacate their country altogether as a condition of peace? I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. If you mean the blockade, don't you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade?
  - mikojan 3y ago
    > I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing. > [Don't] you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade? People living under occupation have a right to armed resistance under international law. Israel has no right to continue its occupation.
- devenvdev 3y ago
  How? There are generations born in Israel, people who have nothing to do with occupation, they were born into this situation same like Palestinians. Why would they leave? My father is Belorussian jew, mother Dagestanian Ukrainian, I was born in Russia. I'm Israely. Where exactly do you want me to pack up my bags and leave? Because I WILL fight you if you'll try to deport me to Russia... I consider calls "to end the occupation" a sign of lack of understanding of the other side, we have nowhere to go.
  - mikojan 3y ago
    Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing. And it needs to end. I do not care if you continue your live in Russia or Israel...
vacuity 3y ago
Hamas is certainly a bad actor. I'm of the opinion that while Israel is somewhat better, it still did some bad things and is doing bad things that should be addressed. I wouldn't describe the Israeli government as a "defender" and leave it at that.

by prmph 3y ago

__blockcipher__ 3y ago

I don't really feel like clearing up all the half-truths or outright lies here, but I wanted to just call out one: > with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter. The "from the river to the sea" is the language in the Likud charter, the party ruling Israel and dropping thousands of 2-ton bombs on Gaza right now. The popular chant "from the river to the sea palestine will be free" is a direct response to that. I'm unaware of Hamas' charter using the "from the river to the sea" language, although I'm open for correction here because I have not read the entire charter.

prmph 3y ago
Are you claiming ignorance of the fact that the Hamas charter originally called for the liquidation of Israel? This is common knowledge. Granted, they have revised it recently to tone down the genocidal language, but I don't think anybody should be deceived about what their intentions are. As the history of the slogan "from the river to the sea", please read on it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea, it has little to do with Likud.
- avtar 3y ago
  > it has little to do with Likud. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... "The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
  - devenvdev 3y ago
    An easy check gives that Likud was formed in 70s while the phrase was popularized in 60s by pro-Palestinian movements. Not that it makes this "who's invented the phrase" argument less of a strawman.

mikojan 3y ago

> Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave? That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.

prmph 3y ago
By "Pack up their bags and leave" I meant, do Israelis have to vacate their country altogether as a condition of peace? I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. If you mean the blockade, don't you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade?
- mikojan 3y ago
  > I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing. > [Don't] you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade? People living under occupation have a right to armed resistance under international law. Israel has no right to continue its occupation.
devenvdev 3y ago
How? There are generations born in Israel, people who have nothing to do with occupation, they were born into this situation same like Palestinians. Why would they leave? My father is Belorussian jew, mother Dagestanian Ukrainian, I was born in Russia. I'm Israely. Where exactly do you want me to pack up my bags and leave? Because I WILL fight you if you'll try to deport me to Russia... I consider calls "to end the occupation" a sign of lack of understanding of the other side, we have nowhere to go.
- mikojan 3y ago
  Israel controls Gaza's borders. Israel controls the sea. Israel controls Gaza's airspace. Israel controls the products entering and exiting Gaza. Israel controls even more areas than this. The occupation is ongoing. And it needs to end. I do not care if you continue your live in Russia or Israel...

vacuity 3y ago

Hamas is certainly a bad actor. I'm of the opinion that while Israel is somewhat better, it still did some bad things and is doing bad things that should be addressed. I wouldn't describe the Israeli government as a "defender" and leave it at that.