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Please, go through the images first. Then explain to me, how bulldozing a park aids in Israel's effort to fight Hamas? Again, Israel has the right to fight and

by shihab 3y ago

Please, go through the images first. Then explain to me, how bulldozing a park aids in Israel's effort to fight Hamas? Again, Israel has the right to fight and fight hard, anyone would do that in their place. But I think many people in the west are awefully unaware of just the scale and magnitude of the destruction Israel has unleashed.

edanm 3y ago
Yes, Israel has destroyed a lot of Gaza. This is a big problem, especially for the "day after" the war. As for many people being unaware - most people are unaware of anything to do with this conflict and only know a couple of slogans. To your question - how does bulldozing a park help? I have no idea. Nobody outside of the IDF really knows the specific reasons for bombing some locations. I trust the IDF to not be shooting rockets at targets for no reason, which is probably a level of trust that most people don't share. I'm sure someone with more military understanding could offer plausible theories, but if you're inclined to believe that Israel is trying to level Gaza just to hurt Gazans, I doubt any theory they offer would sound convincing.
- shihab 3y ago
  Oh, I trust them alright- + "We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agricultural Minister of Israel. + “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly...We will eliminate everything - they will regret it" - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip an option" - Heritage Minister. + "Nakba? Expel them all,” Nissim Vaturi, deputy speaker for Israel’s parliament. + "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell." Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian. + "only solution left is "voluntary" evacuation of Gazans to countries around the world" - Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. + "If it [Hezbollah] makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut," - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember" - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. (that verse goes on to command King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel)
  - throwawayeiror 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - edanm 3y ago
    I've seen this list many times. Firstly, some of it was taken out of context. That said, some of the statements there are appalling, and I detest many of these politicians and condemn these statements. Some of the statements were widely panned, btw. Luckily, the worst of these politicians aren't the ones actually calling the shots (except Netanyahu). Lastly, and most importantly - these lists have gone around many times, and they are bad, but they are also wartime propoganda. I find it far more relevant to see these statements in a broader context - the vast majority of statements that most of these politicans have made are explicitly against this idea. That doesn't make these statements less heinous, but if politicians are saying 99 statements along the lines of "we only target terrorists and are doing our best to protect civilians", and 1 time out of 100 say the opposite, it's the 1 statement that makes the rounds for months, without any reference to the fact that it might be retracted, and/or 99% of the time the statements go the other way. You can choose to insist on only believing the bad statements, because those "show what they really think" or something, but that's again dragging your personal view of Israel into it.
    - mandmandam 3y ago
      The IDF left premature babies to rot after forcing doctors away at gunpoint. No one in the Israeli government seems to have felt bad about that. The IDF, with the full backing of the Israeli and US governments, are murdering thousands and thousands of children, then saying things like "well you can't trust Hamas' numbers". They're targeting journalists and poets. They're targeting historic buildings. They're targeting refugee camps and humanitarian corridors. More UN workers have been murdered than in any other conflict, ever. That's the context I interpret the above statements in, and I don't know how those facts can be looked over.
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't cross into pursuing battle in this thread. Your comment here has started to do that. Your previous two comments seem fine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38619033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38619033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38618814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38618814 (I hope this helps a bit in terms of making the distinction.) I've explained at the top of the thread, and in a bunch of other posts, why this matters and what we're asking for here.
- alexisread 3y ago
  The thing is, bulldozing is also happening in the West Bank, which has nothing to do with Hamas. Of note in this conflict, many genocidal comments from Israeli ministers, along with footage taken by IDF soldiers glorifying the destruction, several faked testimonies (admitted by the IDF) including the infamous calendar video, and a lack of evidence over claims that hospitals are being used as Hamas HQs, add up to a notable inconsistency between Israel’s stated aims and what is actually happening there. As referred to in other comments, terrorism in Northern Ireland and Spain were solved by coming to the negotiating table. Additionally, rather than bombing civilians which is more likely to Foster a new generation of terrorists out for revenge, Israel could simply spend that war chest donated by the US ($3bn / year and a $14bn aid package) invest in Gaza, give the citizens at least the daily minimum of water recommended by the UN (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_...) and a reliable electricity supply. As the country responsible for these resources it is inhumane to do otherwise. There is a correlation between treating people well, and a lack of violence from them. Of that aid from the US to a distinctly non-third world country, this is probably the most interesting question. Countries very rarely give money for free, so something is being bought here. Nowhere is the question being asked what that is, but it points to unsaid motives.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > The thing is, bulldozing is also happening in the West Bank, which has nothing to do with Hamas. Well, "nothing to do" is a bit of a stretch. There are active Hamas militants in the WB as well, and their actions on October 7th have polled at as having around 70% approval in the WB (which lest I be misunderstood, I mention to indicate a willingness to cooperate with Hamas by the populace, not as justification to attack them for their views). > As referred to in other comments, terrorism in Northern Ireland and Spain were solved by coming to the negotiating table. Great. Israel did that multiple times, and Palestinians have never agreed to any deal offered them. Hamas isn't really trying to negotiate here though - their stated goal is to kill all Jews and take back the entire land. > Additionally, rather than bombing civilians which is more likely to Foster a new generation of terrorists out for revenge, Israel could simply spend that war chest donated by the US ($3bn / year and a $14bn aid package) invest in Gaza, So, disarm itself completely and hope that Hamas doesn't do what it promised it would do over and over, and has already proved capable of doing? Gaza gets enormous amounts of financial aid, e.g. $600m in 2020 (just the first figure I found on Google). You know where that aid goes? Hamas steals it to finance its war against Israel. You can literally see videos of them attacking food aid trucks coming into Gaza now and stealing the food for themselves. > As the country responsible for these resources it is inhumane to do otherwise. There is a correlation between treating people well, and a lack of violence from them. Israel isn't wholly responsible for these resources, Hamas is the government of Gaza and is responsible for it. Israel provides some water to Gaza and sells some electricity to Gaza. But really, why do you think Gaza, despite enormous financial aid from around the world, is still reliant on Israel for so many things? It's not like Mexico is reliant on the US for everything.
esyir 3y ago
At the end of the day, fight from civvy areas, get civvy areas demolished. That's the nature of the beast. If you establish HQ in a building, that's now an acceptable target. The alternative is that civilian areas are an invulnerability shield that lets you conduct whatever operations you want. And this is Israel holding back. They have the option to level all of Gaza, they don't. They do roof knocks, conduct evacuations. And they didn't break the ceasefire conditions either.
- samuria 3y ago
  Everything you said in your comment has been debunked. IDF claimed that Hamas had HQ in Al Shifa hospital, and all they found as proof was a calendar, and they stopped saying there was a HQ. They then moved onto another hospital claiming that was the correct HQ, then that turned out to not be true as well. Regarding ceasefire, Israel has broken a total of 17 ceasefires in the past. Ranging from assassinations to straight up bombing civilians during ceasefire period. I don't understand your reasoning with "they do roof knocks, and tell people to evacuate, so it's all good when civilian areas get demolished and children die, that's war!" Israel has done nothing but lie since the beginning of this genocide. This is all happening alongside the blatant terrorism happening in the West Bank with the settlers. You can't seriously defend a nation when the leader is openly saying "wipe them all out - all of them."
  - edanm 3y ago
    > Everything you said in your comment has been debunked I'm sorry, if you seriously believe that - you are just factually wrong. I urge you - if you're serious - try to view real journalistic accounts of what is going on. They're not all favorable to Israel, but at least they aren't going to completely misinform you about what's going on. Just as an example: > IDF claimed that Hamas had HQ in Al Shifa hospital, and all they found as proof was a calendar, and they stopped saying there was a HQ. This is completely false. They didn't "only find a calendar" and they didn't "stop saying there was an HQ there". There have been multiple videos showing ammunition recovered in the hospital, showing the undergroung tunnel network under the hospital, there was even a video of Hamas militants dragging in hostages into the hospital. You're just straight up wrong about your facts.

by shihab 3y ago

edanm 3y ago

Yes, Israel has destroyed a lot of Gaza. This is a big problem, especially for the "day after" the war. As for many people being unaware - most people are unaware of anything to do with this conflict and only know a couple of slogans. To your question - how does bulldozing a park help? I have no idea. Nobody outside of the IDF really knows the specific reasons for bombing some locations. I trust the IDF to not be shooting rockets at targets for no reason, which is probably a level of trust that most people don't share. I'm sure someone with more military understanding could offer plausible theories, but if you're inclined to believe that Israel is trying to level Gaza just to hurt Gazans, I doubt any theory they offer would sound convincing.

shihab 3y ago
Oh, I trust them alright- + "We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agricultural Minister of Israel. + “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly...We will eliminate everything - they will regret it" - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip an option" - Heritage Minister. + "Nakba? Expel them all,” Nissim Vaturi, deputy speaker for Israel’s parliament. + "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell." Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian. + "only solution left is "voluntary" evacuation of Gazans to countries around the world" - Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. + "If it [Hezbollah] makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut," - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember" - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. (that verse goes on to command King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel)
- throwawayeiror 3y ago
  [flagged]
- edanm 3y ago
  I've seen this list many times. Firstly, some of it was taken out of context. That said, some of the statements there are appalling, and I detest many of these politicians and condemn these statements. Some of the statements were widely panned, btw. Luckily, the worst of these politicians aren't the ones actually calling the shots (except Netanyahu). Lastly, and most importantly - these lists have gone around many times, and they are bad, but they are also wartime propoganda. I find it far more relevant to see these statements in a broader context - the vast majority of statements that most of these politicans have made are explicitly against this idea. That doesn't make these statements less heinous, but if politicians are saying 99 statements along the lines of "we only target terrorists and are doing our best to protect civilians", and 1 time out of 100 say the opposite, it's the 1 statement that makes the rounds for months, without any reference to the fact that it might be retracted, and/or 99% of the time the statements go the other way. You can choose to insist on only believing the bad statements, because those "show what they really think" or something, but that's again dragging your personal view of Israel into it.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    The IDF left premature babies to rot after forcing doctors away at gunpoint. No one in the Israeli government seems to have felt bad about that. The IDF, with the full backing of the Israeli and US governments, are murdering thousands and thousands of children, then saying things like "well you can't trust Hamas' numbers". They're targeting journalists and poets. They're targeting historic buildings. They're targeting refugee camps and humanitarian corridors. More UN workers have been murdered than in any other conflict, ever. That's the context I interpret the above statements in, and I don't know how those facts can be looked over.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't cross into pursuing battle in this thread. Your comment here has started to do that. Your previous two comments seem fine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38619033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38619033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38618814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38618814 (I hope this helps a bit in terms of making the distinction.) I've explained at the top of the thread, and in a bunch of other posts, why this matters and what we're asking for here.
alexisread 3y ago
The thing is, bulldozing is also happening in the West Bank, which has nothing to do with Hamas. Of note in this conflict, many genocidal comments from Israeli ministers, along with footage taken by IDF soldiers glorifying the destruction, several faked testimonies (admitted by the IDF) including the infamous calendar video, and a lack of evidence over claims that hospitals are being used as Hamas HQs, add up to a notable inconsistency between Israel’s stated aims and what is actually happening there. As referred to in other comments, terrorism in Northern Ireland and Spain were solved by coming to the negotiating table. Additionally, rather than bombing civilians which is more likely to Foster a new generation of terrorists out for revenge, Israel could simply spend that war chest donated by the US ($3bn / year and a $14bn aid package) invest in Gaza, give the citizens at least the daily minimum of water recommended by the UN (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_...) and a reliable electricity supply. As the country responsible for these resources it is inhumane to do otherwise. There is a correlation between treating people well, and a lack of violence from them. Of that aid from the US to a distinctly non-third world country, this is probably the most interesting question. Countries very rarely give money for free, so something is being bought here. Nowhere is the question being asked what that is, but it points to unsaid motives.
- edanm 3y ago
  > The thing is, bulldozing is also happening in the West Bank, which has nothing to do with Hamas. Well, "nothing to do" is a bit of a stretch. There are active Hamas militants in the WB as well, and their actions on October 7th have polled at as having around 70% approval in the WB (which lest I be misunderstood, I mention to indicate a willingness to cooperate with Hamas by the populace, not as justification to attack them for their views). > As referred to in other comments, terrorism in Northern Ireland and Spain were solved by coming to the negotiating table. Great. Israel did that multiple times, and Palestinians have never agreed to any deal offered them. Hamas isn't really trying to negotiate here though - their stated goal is to kill all Jews and take back the entire land. > Additionally, rather than bombing civilians which is more likely to Foster a new generation of terrorists out for revenge, Israel could simply spend that war chest donated by the US ($3bn / year and a $14bn aid package) invest in Gaza, So, disarm itself completely and hope that Hamas doesn't do what it promised it would do over and over, and has already proved capable of doing? Gaza gets enormous amounts of financial aid, e.g. $600m in 2020 (just the first figure I found on Google). You know where that aid goes? Hamas steals it to finance its war against Israel. You can literally see videos of them attacking food aid trucks coming into Gaza now and stealing the food for themselves. > As the country responsible for these resources it is inhumane to do otherwise. There is a correlation between treating people well, and a lack of violence from them. Israel isn't wholly responsible for these resources, Hamas is the government of Gaza and is responsible for it. Israel provides some water to Gaza and sells some electricity to Gaza. But really, why do you think Gaza, despite enormous financial aid from around the world, is still reliant on Israel for so many things? It's not like Mexico is reliant on the US for everything.

esyir 3y ago

At the end of the day, fight from civvy areas, get civvy areas demolished. That's the nature of the beast. If you establish HQ in a building, that's now an acceptable target. The alternative is that civilian areas are an invulnerability shield that lets you conduct whatever operations you want. And this is Israel holding back. They have the option to level all of Gaza, they don't. They do roof knocks, conduct evacuations. And they didn't break the ceasefire conditions either.

samuria 3y ago
Everything you said in your comment has been debunked. IDF claimed that Hamas had HQ in Al Shifa hospital, and all they found as proof was a calendar, and they stopped saying there was a HQ. They then moved onto another hospital claiming that was the correct HQ, then that turned out to not be true as well. Regarding ceasefire, Israel has broken a total of 17 ceasefires in the past. Ranging from assassinations to straight up bombing civilians during ceasefire period. I don't understand your reasoning with "they do roof knocks, and tell people to evacuate, so it's all good when civilian areas get demolished and children die, that's war!" Israel has done nothing but lie since the beginning of this genocide. This is all happening alongside the blatant terrorism happening in the West Bank with the settlers. You can't seriously defend a nation when the leader is openly saying "wipe them all out - all of them."
- edanm 3y ago
  > Everything you said in your comment has been debunked I'm sorry, if you seriously believe that - you are just factually wrong. I urge you - if you're serious - try to view real journalistic accounts of what is going on. They're not all favorable to Israel, but at least they aren't going to completely misinform you about what's going on. Just as an example: > IDF claimed that Hamas had HQ in Al Shifa hospital, and all they found as proof was a calendar, and they stopped saying there was a HQ. This is completely false. They didn't "only find a calendar" and they didn't "stop saying there was an HQ there". There have been multiple videos showing ammunition recovered in the hospital, showing the undergroung tunnel network under the hospital, there was even a video of Hamas militants dragging in hostages into the hospital. You're just straight up wrong about your facts.