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Israel absolutely has the right to fight Hamas. But on the question of whether it's really defense vs avenge on entire population, I urge you to go through rece

by shihab 3y ago

Israel absolutely has the right to fight Hamas. But on the question of whether it's really defense vs avenge on entire population, I urge you to go through recent nytimes article titled "Gaza After Nine Weeks of War" with an open mind [1]. Entire neighborhoods has been bombed to rubbles, parks and roads have been bulldozed. Every single civilian structures, hotels, homes, playgrounds, port- on a large stretch beside sea has been utterly destroyed. That's not a picture of a moral army fighting insurgents embedded in Civilian population, it's the picture of a fight against the entire civilian population- or "mowing the grass" in Israeli military's parlance. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/12/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-satellite-images-israel-invasion.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/12/world/middlee...

edanm 3y ago
Every time somebody says this, I always ask the same question - what is the alternative? What should Israel do instead? This is war. War is horrible and tragic, and far more so because Hamas hides within civilian buildings and used human shields. What should Israel do instead to protect itself and to fight Hamas?
- bjourne 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - neoromantique 3y ago
    >Refaat Alareer >Poet Ah. One of the most known Hamas propagandists is now a mere poet.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      Killing civilians is fine on the basis of their speech now?
    - dang 3y ago
      Please don't cross into posting battle comments in this thread. I've explained at the top of the thread, and in many other comments, why we're trying to avoid that and what we're going for here.
      - neoromantique 3y ago
        It is important context as the person I was responding to is insinuating that this was just a civilian scholar, which in verifiably false by reading his own tweets. EDIT: I just saw the same remark towards the comment I responded to, fair enough
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't cross into posting battle comments in this thread. I've explained at the top of the thread, and in many other comments, why we're trying to avoid that and what we're going for here. I gather that you don't agree—and that's ok—but I still need to treat your comments the same way that I'm treating everyone else's.
    - bjourne 3y ago
      [flagged]
- shihab 3y ago
  Please, go through the images first. Then explain to me, how bulldozing a park aids in Israel's effort to fight Hamas? Again, Israel has the right to fight and fight hard, anyone would do that in their place. But I think many people in the west are awefully unaware of just the scale and magnitude of the destruction Israel has unleashed.
  - edanm 3y ago
    Yes, Israel has destroyed a lot of Gaza. This is a big problem, especially for the "day after" the war. As for many people being unaware - most people are unaware of anything to do with this conflict and only know a couple of slogans. To your question - how does bulldozing a park help? I have no idea. Nobody outside of the IDF really knows the specific reasons for bombing some locations. I trust the IDF to not be shooting rockets at targets for no reason, which is probably a level of trust that most people don't share. I'm sure someone with more military understanding could offer plausible theories, but if you're inclined to believe that Israel is trying to level Gaza just to hurt Gazans, I doubt any theory they offer would sound convincing.
    - shihab 3y ago
      Oh, I trust them alright- + "We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agricultural Minister of Israel. + “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly...We will eliminate everything - they will regret it" - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip an option" - Heritage Minister. + "Nakba? Expel them all,” Nissim Vaturi, deputy speaker for Israel’s parliament. + "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell." Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian. + "only solution left is "voluntary" evacuation of Gazans to countries around the world" - Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. + "If it [Hezbollah] makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut," - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember" - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. (that verse goes on to command King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel)
- adammarples 3y ago
  I think Israel has to ask itself why there is such a large militant force on its borders, embedded in the civilian population. Why the population support it and why it is hell bent on destroying Israel. Why for example does this problem not occur for other nations? Could Israel be responsible in some way for the situation it is in? The alternative might lie some way from addressing that.
  - oytis 3y ago
    Being located in the Middle East is their main mistake. Being a Jewish state in the Middle East makes it even worse.
    - __blockcipher__ 3y ago
      I have no love for Islam (nor hatred) but Jews have always been considered a protected class under Islamic law. Which I mention to bring up the point that if we had an organic Jewish state that arose naturally (i.e. via voluntary accumulation of land via purchases, etc, as opposed to theft which is how the state of Israel was formed), I see no reason why they couldn't maintain healthy relations with the surrounding states. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that the modern phenomenon of violent Islamic terrorism did not exist a century ago. In my view it's basically a direct result of Israeli & Western foreign policy. It's really hard to take land from people and in some cases commit literal massacres (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) and not end up with a significant portion of the affected population turning to terrorism.
      - throwawayeiror 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - h3rsko 3y ago
        Are you really not aware of the Jewish massacres in the middle east?
      - oytis 3y ago
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  What did the US do in Afghanistan and Iraq? I don't remember them leveling cities.
pgeorgi 3y ago
> it's the picture of a fight against the entire civilian population Israel could have been done with that 6 weeks ago, if they didn't care about making the distinction. It's a pretty small region, after all. Are they doing a good job in distinguishing military targets and civilians? No. Could anybody do better and still make progress towards the stated goal? Uncertain. But I don't think that "Israel is not even trying to protect civilians" is supported by Israel's actions.

by shihab 3y ago

edanm 3y ago

Every time somebody says this, I always ask the same question - what is the alternative? What should Israel do instead? This is war. War is horrible and tragic, and far more so because Hamas hides within civilian buildings and used human shields. What should Israel do instead to protect itself and to fight Hamas?

bjourne 3y ago
[flagged]
- neoromantique 3y ago
  >Refaat Alareer >Poet Ah. One of the most known Hamas propagandists is now a mere poet.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Killing civilians is fine on the basis of their speech now?
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't cross into posting battle comments in this thread. I've explained at the top of the thread, and in many other comments, why we're trying to avoid that and what we're going for here.
    - neoromantique 3y ago
      It is important context as the person I was responding to is insinuating that this was just a civilian scholar, which in verifiably false by reading his own tweets. EDIT: I just saw the same remark towards the comment I responded to, fair enough
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't cross into posting battle comments in this thread. I've explained at the top of the thread, and in many other comments, why we're trying to avoid that and what we're going for here. I gather that you don't agree—and that's ok—but I still need to treat your comments the same way that I'm treating everyone else's.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    [flagged]
shihab 3y ago
Please, go through the images first. Then explain to me, how bulldozing a park aids in Israel's effort to fight Hamas? Again, Israel has the right to fight and fight hard, anyone would do that in their place. But I think many people in the west are awefully unaware of just the scale and magnitude of the destruction Israel has unleashed.
- edanm 3y ago
  Yes, Israel has destroyed a lot of Gaza. This is a big problem, especially for the "day after" the war. As for many people being unaware - most people are unaware of anything to do with this conflict and only know a couple of slogans. To your question - how does bulldozing a park help? I have no idea. Nobody outside of the IDF really knows the specific reasons for bombing some locations. I trust the IDF to not be shooting rockets at targets for no reason, which is probably a level of trust that most people don't share. I'm sure someone with more military understanding could offer plausible theories, but if you're inclined to believe that Israel is trying to level Gaza just to hurt Gazans, I doubt any theory they offer would sound convincing.
  - shihab 3y ago
    Oh, I trust them alright- + "We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agricultural Minister of Israel. + “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly...We will eliminate everything - they will regret it" - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip an option" - Heritage Minister. + "Nakba? Expel them all,” Nissim Vaturi, deputy speaker for Israel’s parliament. + "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell." Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian. + "only solution left is "voluntary" evacuation of Gazans to countries around the world" - Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. + "If it [Hezbollah] makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut," - Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister. + "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember" - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. (that verse goes on to command King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel)
adammarples 3y ago
I think Israel has to ask itself why there is such a large militant force on its borders, embedded in the civilian population. Why the population support it and why it is hell bent on destroying Israel. Why for example does this problem not occur for other nations? Could Israel be responsible in some way for the situation it is in? The alternative might lie some way from addressing that.
- oytis 3y ago
  Being located in the Middle East is their main mistake. Being a Jewish state in the Middle East makes it even worse.
  - __blockcipher__ 3y ago
    I have no love for Islam (nor hatred) but Jews have always been considered a protected class under Islamic law. Which I mention to bring up the point that if we had an organic Jewish state that arose naturally (i.e. via voluntary accumulation of land via purchases, etc, as opposed to theft which is how the state of Israel was formed), I see no reason why they couldn't maintain healthy relations with the surrounding states. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that the modern phenomenon of violent Islamic terrorism did not exist a century ago. In my view it's basically a direct result of Israeli & Western foreign policy. It's really hard to take land from people and in some cases commit literal massacres (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) and not end up with a significant portion of the affected population turning to terrorism.
    - throwawayeiror 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - h3rsko 3y ago
      Are you really not aware of the Jewish massacres in the middle east?
    - oytis 3y ago
Hikikomori 3y ago
What did the US do in Afghanistan and Iraq? I don't remember them leveling cities.

pgeorgi 3y ago

> it's the picture of a fight against the entire civilian population Israel could have been done with that 6 weeks ago, if they didn't care about making the distinction. It's a pretty small region, after all. Are they doing a good job in distinguishing military targets and civilians? No. Could anybody do better and still make progress towards the stated goal? Uncertain. But I don't think that "Israel is not even trying to protect civilians" is supported by Israel's actions.