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This is a longer version of "Israel has the right to defend itself". Maybe Israel shouldn't exist but since it does I think we can agree it has a right to defen

This is a longer version of "Israel has the right to defend itself". Maybe Israel shouldn't exist but since it does I think we can agree it has a right to defend itself since if it doesn't innocents will be harmed/killed/raped. That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. And beyond the insane death toll and indiscriminate bombing, Gazans are hungry and without water and shelter. Of course, Israel should exercise restraint, especially since it's better armed and has such sophisticated intelligence. Now it's making itself a pariah (except in the US)

edanm 3y ago
> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is. People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happening on purpose, that I'm aware. This is complicated by Hamas deliberately using human shields and trying to get Gazans killed to make Israel look bad. It is a very complicated situation to fight in and Israel is absolutely making mistakes, but I urge you, show evidence of it actually committing war crimes in the killing of citizens. > And beyond the insane death toll and indiscriminate bombing, Gazans are hungry and without water and shelter. Hamas is the government responsible for Gazans. if they are hungry, it's because Hamas is failing in its duty to its citizens. They are literally stealing food from aid trucks in order to feed themselves (and probably stockpile food in tunnels) instead of feeding their own citizens. Not to mention, they could return the hostages and surrender and spare themselves and their citizens all of this death and pain. As for the "insane death tool" - what makes it "insane" in your mind? Note: every death is a tragedy. Civilians dying, on either side, is tragic. Hell, even soldiers and Hamas militants dying is tragic - every death is a tragedy. I'm talking about all this analytically but the death and suffering here is horrible.
- vacuity 3y ago
  Whether Israel is proportionately attacking Gaza remains to be seen. Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    I think we know enough to say it's disproportionate. 15,000+ dead in Gaza, many more wounded. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini... Also remember the Israel had (has?) a policy of responding disproportionately: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
  - edanm 3y ago
    > Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. Yes and no. Israel definitely hasn't had clean hands these last 15 years, but on the other hand it did withdraw from Gaza and leave it to themselves to manage. They really, really could've tried to better themselves, the area, etc, and instead chose to continue pursuing violence (via electing Hamas), which led to them being blockaded etc. Don't forget, Israel was allowing more and more Gazan citizens to enter Israel to work. There are terrible stories (I don't know for sure if these are verified though) that many Gazan workers, who worked for years in the cities surrounding Gaza, actually gave information to Hamas to help them carry out the attack. > That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians. Yes, there's definitely at least some merit to this. But that's true of almost every country. All of them have complicated histories. How many countries were newly created since WW2? Only in this one case, a group that arguably got a bad deal (and it is arguable), is still clinging to violence and the idea that they'll "return" 75 years later.
    - 3y ago

edanm 3y ago

> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is. People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happening on purpose, that I'm aware. This is complicated by Hamas deliberately using human shields and trying to get Gazans killed to make Israel look bad. It is a very complicated situation to fight in and Israel is absolutely making mistakes, but I urge you, show evidence of it actually committing war crimes in the killing of citizens. > And beyond the insane death toll and indiscriminate bombing, Gazans are hungry and without water and shelter. Hamas is the government responsible for Gazans. if they are hungry, it's because Hamas is failing in its duty to its citizens. They are literally stealing food from aid trucks in order to feed themselves (and probably stockpile food in tunnels) instead of feeding their own citizens. Not to mention, they could return the hostages and surrender and spare themselves and their citizens all of this death and pain. As for the "insane death tool" - what makes it "insane" in your mind? Note: every death is a tragedy. Civilians dying, on either side, is tragic. Hell, even soldiers and Hamas militants dying is tragic - every death is a tragedy. I'm talking about all this analytically but the death and suffering here is horrible.

vacuity 3y ago
Whether Israel is proportionately attacking Gaza remains to be seen. Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  I think we know enough to say it's disproportionate. 15,000+ dead in Gaza, many more wounded. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini... Also remember the Israel had (has?) a policy of responding disproportionately: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
- edanm 3y ago
  > Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. Yes and no. Israel definitely hasn't had clean hands these last 15 years, but on the other hand it did withdraw from Gaza and leave it to themselves to manage. They really, really could've tried to better themselves, the area, etc, and instead chose to continue pursuing violence (via electing Hamas), which led to them being blockaded etc. Don't forget, Israel was allowing more and more Gazan citizens to enter Israel to work. There are terrible stories (I don't know for sure if these are verified though) that many Gazan workers, who worked for years in the cities surrounding Gaza, actually gave information to Hamas to help them carry out the attack. > That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians. Yes, there's definitely at least some merit to this. But that's true of almost every country. All of them have complicated histories. How many countries were newly created since WW2? Only in this one case, a group that arguably got a bad deal (and it is arguable), is still clinging to violence and the idea that they'll "return" 75 years later.
  - 3y ago