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The way you put it, it sounds like Israel got up in the morning one day and for reasons no one can understand, decided to start inflicting civilian casualties o

by qwerpy 3y ago

The way you put it, it sounds like Israel got up in the morning one day and for reasons no one can understand, decided to start inflicting civilian casualties on Palestinians.

holyhelldang 3y ago
[dead]
nico 3y ago
You are correct that there is a history there, but They way you put it, it sounds like Israel wasn’t created by forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people that were already there
- liorsbg 3y ago
  It wasn't.
- aluminum96 3y ago
  > forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people That is incredibly ahistorical, and in my honest opinion, "land theft" allegations are akin to a smear. The truth about the land's history is, of course, too complicated to fit in a thread.
  - nico 3y ago
    Oh yeah, “it’s complicated” One thing is for sure though, they keep doing it. To this day Israeli settlers, aided by the IDF, keep stealing Palestinian land and resources Israel probably wishes they would just disappear so it would stop being so complicated
    - aluminum96 3y ago
      Your scare quotes are super condescending, but yes, it truly is notoriously complicated. Thousands of books have been written on it, and millions of hours have been spent debating it. Denying that Jews have any legitimate claim to land in the Levant is partisan and false, and it pours fuel on the fire. The only possible lasting solution will acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians have a rightful claim to (and a need for) a state.
      - nico 3y ago
        No one denied any Jewish claims You however, by saying it’s complicated, are trying to paint a simple picture in which Israel apparently didn’t do anything wrong That’s actually incredibly partisan and false
        aluminum96 3y ago
        > No one denied any Jewish claims Yes you did. You said Israel was created by "forcefully stealing land." The vast majority of Jewish migrants in the late 19th century bought the land. If you're talking about the 1949 war... well, it was a war, in which the Israelis agreed to the fair UN partition plan, and the Arab states did not. At the very least, "stealing" is a very reductive way to summarize it. > by saying it’s complicated, are trying to paint a simple picture But is is complicated! That is actually true, and that's OK! > in which Israel apparently didn’t do anything wrong Of course Israel has done things wrong. > That’s actually incredibly partisan I am trying my absolute best to make comments in the spirit of HN. If you think it's too partisan to engage with, then I'm sorry, but you should know that I really did try.
        nico 3y ago
        So pointing out the fact that Israel has been stealing land from Palestinian people is denying Jewish claims? Maybe you mean Zionist claims? Do you also think that criticizing Israel in any way is antisemitic?
      - mardifoufs 3y ago
        What is so complicated about admitting that Israel is stealing land as we speak, with its colonies in the west bank? Even Israel has no issues with colonizing its neighbors, so it's amazing to see you argue otherwise. It's not a secret. Also it's amazing how nuance is needed when it's to discuss Israel's war crimes, land grabs, and everything else. But none is required when it's about Palestinians. Do you also say that "it's complicated" when someone talks about Hamas?
        3y ago
lossolo 3y ago
Someone else might say the same about the Hamas attack on October 7th. As the UN Secretary-General said, "This most recent violence does not occur in a vacuum. It stems from a long-standing conflict, a 56-year-long occupation, and the absence of a political solution in sight."[1] Whichever side you are on (if any), responding to atrocities with further atrocities is not justifiable. It doesn't matter who commits these atrocities 1. https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-09/secretary-generals-remarks-the-press-the-situation-the-middle-east https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-09/secr...
- iddan 3y ago
  Do you know Israel was trying to strike peace deals with the Palestinians multiple times and faced stagnation and rejection from their leadership? Also, the only reason Hamas exists is Israel completely pulled out from the Gaza Strip in 2007 letting it be self governed like an independent state. So no, it doesn’t matter what happened 56 years ago. Things have changed, there were many, many opportunities to change course and nothing justifies the horrific vicious terror attack of October 7th.

by qwerpy 3y ago

The way you put it, it sounds like Israel got up in the morning one day and for reasons no one can understand, decided to start inflicting civilian casualties on Palestinians.

holyhelldang 3y ago

[dead]

nico 3y ago

You are correct that there is a history there, but They way you put it, it sounds like Israel wasn’t created by forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people that were already there

liorsbg 3y ago
It wasn't.
aluminum96 3y ago
> forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people That is incredibly ahistorical, and in my honest opinion, "land theft" allegations are akin to a smear. The truth about the land's history is, of course, too complicated to fit in a thread.
- nico 3y ago
  Oh yeah, “it’s complicated” One thing is for sure though, they keep doing it. To this day Israeli settlers, aided by the IDF, keep stealing Palestinian land and resources Israel probably wishes they would just disappear so it would stop being so complicated
  - aluminum96 3y ago
    Your scare quotes are super condescending, but yes, it truly is notoriously complicated. Thousands of books have been written on it, and millions of hours have been spent debating it. Denying that Jews have any legitimate claim to land in the Levant is partisan and false, and it pours fuel on the fire. The only possible lasting solution will acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians have a rightful claim to (and a need for) a state.
    - nico 3y ago
      No one denied any Jewish claims You however, by saying it’s complicated, are trying to paint a simple picture in which Israel apparently didn’t do anything wrong That’s actually incredibly partisan and false
      - aluminum96 3y ago
        > No one denied any Jewish claims Yes you did. You said Israel was created by "forcefully stealing land." The vast majority of Jewish migrants in the late 19th century bought the land. If you're talking about the 1949 war... well, it was a war, in which the Israelis agreed to the fair UN partition plan, and the Arab states did not. At the very least, "stealing" is a very reductive way to summarize it. > by saying it’s complicated, are trying to paint a simple picture But is is complicated! That is actually true, and that's OK! > in which Israel apparently didn’t do anything wrong Of course Israel has done things wrong. > That’s actually incredibly partisan I am trying my absolute best to make comments in the spirit of HN. If you think it's too partisan to engage with, then I'm sorry, but you should know that I really did try.
        nico 3y ago
        So pointing out the fact that Israel has been stealing land from Palestinian people is denying Jewish claims? Maybe you mean Zionist claims? Do you also think that criticizing Israel in any way is antisemitic?
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      What is so complicated about admitting that Israel is stealing land as we speak, with its colonies in the west bank? Even Israel has no issues with colonizing its neighbors, so it's amazing to see you argue otherwise. It's not a secret. Also it's amazing how nuance is needed when it's to discuss Israel's war crimes, land grabs, and everything else. But none is required when it's about Palestinians. Do you also say that "it's complicated" when someone talks about Hamas?
      - 3y ago

lossolo 3y ago

Someone else might say the same about the Hamas attack on October 7th. As the UN Secretary-General said, "This most recent violence does not occur in a vacuum. It stems from a long-standing conflict, a 56-year-long occupation, and the absence of a political solution in sight."[1] Whichever side you are on (if any), responding to atrocities with further atrocities is not justifiable. It doesn't matter who commits these atrocities 1. https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-09/secretary-generals-remarks-the-press-the-situation-the-middle-east https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-09/secr...

iddan 3y ago
Do you know Israel was trying to strike peace deals with the Palestinians multiple times and faced stagnation and rejection from their leadership? Also, the only reason Hamas exists is Israel completely pulled out from the Gaza Strip in 2007 letting it be self governed like an independent state. So no, it doesn’t matter what happened 56 years ago. Things have changed, there were many, many opportunities to change course and nothing justifies the horrific vicious terror attack of October 7th.