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Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor? How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their ho

by forty 3y ago

Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor? How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their houses and belongings and killing (and maybe torturing as described in this article), be considered in any way as aggressor? if a terrorist hid in an appartement building, and the police came, start killing all the inhabitants of the building and destroyed the building, in order to stop that terrorist, would you be wondering if that response is legitimate defense? I don't think so.

megaman821 3y ago
What if that terrorist was launching rockets from that apartment? Would it be justified then? These things aren't black-and-white. I don't want to be the person who says how much collateral damage is okay.
- kevingadd 3y ago
  Israel has a proven ability to do precision strikes on apartment buildings that would basically only target the terrorist - we've seen them do this - but they choose to level entire buildings instead. You can probably figure out why they choose that option.
  - megaman821 3y ago
    Israel also has the proven ability to level all of Gaza, but they fact that they don't doesn't mean much. Outsider speculation on Israeli military objectives is meaningless. Wars don't end when one side gets yelled at. They either end with diplomacy or victory.
    - kevingadd 3y ago
      The photos coming out of the north suggest they have in fact decided to level most or all of Gaza.
ashirusnw 3y ago
you and the OP are conflating civil war with laws of war. October 7th was clearly an act of war, and war has been the result. Hamas knew this, but relied on Hezbollah and Houthies pitching in in a much larger way, they miscalculated and Gaza suffers.
- forty 3y ago
  I don't think they miscalculated. Almost everything in this benefit them in almost every possible ways. The horrors of Gaza makes them almost look nice to the eyes of some (they never have been more popular in Palestine and in the world), and makes sure they will have no shortage of terrorists in the many years to come, among the innocent victims and their brothers and sons/orphans. I don't imagine they care or didn't anticipate for those killing of innocent people.
- Levitz 3y ago
  Gaza suffering is the best thing for Hamas. Israel is doing the best possible thing for Hamas and that's why Israel should stop. Because worse than unjustified, their actions are stupid, unless you are a politician saving face. Pray tell, imagine yourself as a 10 year old Palestinian kid who lost half of his family, his house and several friends to Israeli military action. What are the odds that you are willing to die in order to harm Israel in any way, shape or form? Again, this is the best scenario for Hamas. Their leaders are literally not even in Palestine, Israel could decimate the population thrice and chances are that the amount of terrorists would increase.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  I think it's pretty clear Hamas's main objective was to derail the rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They achieved that. It's also clear they don't care what the cost is to Gazans.
emptyfile 3y ago
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- nico 3y ago
  > Gaza is the agressor Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible
  - h3rsko 3y ago
    Israel was not created by "stealing Palestinian land." "Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves." Do you mean when they explode suicide vests and shoot rockets at cities? Is that what you call defending themselves? "genocidal occupation..." I find it hilarious that people can say a population with some of the highest growth on the planet is at the same time suffering a genocide. "The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible." Explain how forcing your citizens to leave Gaza in 2005 fits into this master plan.
    - nico 3y ago
      Please explain how the state of Israel magically appeared in its current location without taking any land from anyone Please explain how the 2023 and the 2005 governments are the same And also please explain why the definition of genocide has absolutely no references to population size or growth, yet you keep bringing it up to justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people
      - ashirusnw 3y ago
        Not OP, but it magically appeared by League of Nations (UN) vote in 1948. "Stealing land" is a very one-sided war to look at it. The legalities and mortality of land captured in self defence are debatable to some extent, but clearly not theft. Pre 1948 there was never a Palestinian state (no Palestinian government, currency, army). 2005 disengagement was a more right-wing government. Interestingly, the real peace actions in Israel tend to be achieved by the right wing government. But if by your argument every Israeli government is somehow a separate state entity, why did the terrorist attacks continue non stop through right wing and left wing Israeli governments? War is not genocide. Using overly emotive terms does not make your argument stronger.

by forty 3y ago

megaman821 3y ago

What if that terrorist was launching rockets from that apartment? Would it be justified then? These things aren't black-and-white. I don't want to be the person who says how much collateral damage is okay.

kevingadd 3y ago
Israel has a proven ability to do precision strikes on apartment buildings that would basically only target the terrorist - we've seen them do this - but they choose to level entire buildings instead. You can probably figure out why they choose that option.
- megaman821 3y ago
  Israel also has the proven ability to level all of Gaza, but they fact that they don't doesn't mean much. Outsider speculation on Israeli military objectives is meaningless. Wars don't end when one side gets yelled at. They either end with diplomacy or victory.
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    The photos coming out of the north suggest they have in fact decided to level most or all of Gaza.

ashirusnw 3y ago

you and the OP are conflating civil war with laws of war. October 7th was clearly an act of war, and war has been the result. Hamas knew this, but relied on Hezbollah and Houthies pitching in in a much larger way, they miscalculated and Gaza suffers.

forty 3y ago
I don't think they miscalculated. Almost everything in this benefit them in almost every possible ways. The horrors of Gaza makes them almost look nice to the eyes of some (they never have been more popular in Palestine and in the world), and makes sure they will have no shortage of terrorists in the many years to come, among the innocent victims and their brothers and sons/orphans. I don't imagine they care or didn't anticipate for those killing of innocent people.
Levitz 3y ago
Gaza suffering is the best thing for Hamas. Israel is doing the best possible thing for Hamas and that's why Israel should stop. Because worse than unjustified, their actions are stupid, unless you are a politician saving face. Pray tell, imagine yourself as a 10 year old Palestinian kid who lost half of his family, his house and several friends to Israeli military action. What are the odds that you are willing to die in order to harm Israel in any way, shape or form? Again, this is the best scenario for Hamas. Their leaders are literally not even in Palestine, Israel could decimate the population thrice and chances are that the amount of terrorists would increase.
jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
I think it's pretty clear Hamas's main objective was to derail the rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They achieved that. It's also clear they don't care what the cost is to Gazans.

emptyfile 3y ago

[dead]

nico 3y ago
> Gaza is the agressor Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible
- h3rsko 3y ago
  Israel was not created by "stealing Palestinian land." "Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves." Do you mean when they explode suicide vests and shoot rockets at cities? Is that what you call defending themselves? "genocidal occupation..." I find it hilarious that people can say a population with some of the highest growth on the planet is at the same time suffering a genocide. "The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible." Explain how forcing your citizens to leave Gaza in 2005 fits into this master plan.
  - nico 3y ago
    Please explain how the state of Israel magically appeared in its current location without taking any land from anyone Please explain how the 2023 and the 2005 governments are the same And also please explain why the definition of genocide has absolutely no references to population size or growth, yet you keep bringing it up to justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people
    - ashirusnw 3y ago
      Not OP, but it magically appeared by League of Nations (UN) vote in 1948. "Stealing land" is a very one-sided war to look at it. The legalities and mortality of land captured in self defence are debatable to some extent, but clearly not theft. Pre 1948 there was never a Palestinian state (no Palestinian government, currency, army). 2005 disengagement was a more right-wing government. Interestingly, the real peace actions in Israel tend to be achieved by the right wing government. But if by your argument every Israeli government is somehow a separate state entity, why did the terrorist attacks continue non stop through right wing and left wing Israeli governments? War is not genocide. Using overly emotive terms does not make your argument stronger.