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> 1. Utter bullshit - completely useless to everyone; unjustifiable. Isn't part of what you're romanticizing of these traditional societies the utterly useless

> 1. Utter bullshit - completely useless to everyone; unjustifiable. Isn't part of what you're romanticizing of these traditional societies the utterly useless shit they might do with some of their time? Our work pays because someone values it, that is tautological.

mandmandam 3y ago
> Our work pays because someone values it, that is tautological. You say that as if it helps your point? I'm talking about "bullshit jobs" as in those described in the book 'Bullshit Jobs' by Graeber. Think Wally from Dilbert; sinecures without the dignity. Here: > Bullshit Jobs: A Theory is a 2018 book by anthropologist David Graeber that postulates the existence of meaningless jobs and analyzes their societal harm. He contends that over half of societal work is pointless and becomes psychologically destructive when paired with a work ethic that associates work with self-worth. Graeber describes five types of meaningless jobs, in which workers pretend their role is not as pointless or harmful as they know it to be: flunkies, goons, duct tapers, box tickers, and taskmasters. He argues that the association of labor with virtuous suffering is recent in human history and proposes unions and universal basic income as a potential solution.
- slothtrop 3y ago
  > You say that as if it helps your point? Yes.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Not sure if that point stands in the light of modern, or any, organisational theory so. Bureaucracy does exist for a reason, to organize things and activities. That organization allows us to live the pampered life we life (at least some do, especially in the developed world). Bullshit jobs are seen as such because division of activities was taken to a point were people fail to see the overall picture. Because, as sad as it is sometimes, in a capitalist society as long as someone pays for job being done, that job holds some value. Even if the people doing it fail to see that sometimes. If you care about some greater meaning ij your job, otherwise if it pays the bills, gets food on the table and, ideally, provides some financial stability, tue job actually provides a ton of value to thw person holding it, regardless if someone classifies it as a BS job or not. By the way, being to conplain about the metaphysical nature and philosophocal meaning of a day job is one of the highest privileges a person can have.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    Value to the yachting class is not the same thing as value to society. Value to the psychopathic dictator buying billions in weapons for his country is not the same thing as value to society. Value to Exxon is not the same thing as value to every living creature on the planet. What Graeber did was look at the net balance. I recommend you look more into it, because your interpretation of what he and I are saying is way off. > By the way, being to conplain about the metaphysical nature and philosophocal meaning of a day job is one of the highest privileges a person can have. Did your boss tell you that? Look at a graph of productivy versus wages over the last 50 years. We should be working 15 hours a week, like our prehistoric ancestors did. We're killing the planet. Thousands of species are being lost. Infinite growth is a lie that is literally going to kill us. It has to stop. This isn't metaphysical or philosophical, it's life and death.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      If you look at my comment history, you will see that I am, by US standards, borderline communist. I am also realist enough, to acknowlwdge the fact that people have to earn a living through work (we don't have the utopia Star Trek is showing, and even if we did I am sure reality would be more like The Expanse), and to see that, so far, a tamed version of capitalism provided, on average, the best outcome. And that means that not ever single person has the luxury to get all the meabing from a job needed to pay the bills. Heck, that was the case throughout history, the deffinition of BS is all that differed. And no, nothing we do in the Western World, or the vast majority, is life and death. Theat is reserved for people suffering war, civil or otherwise, famine and rampant crime. Or people suffering through deregulated, unconstraint capitalism (which, I know, applies to people in the US for example, people that don't hold jobs that make up the majority of HN users so). So yes, this whole BS job thing is, IMHO, highly dubious. Edit: Our pre-historic ancestors worked more than 15 hours, and they faced constant death by stuff we don't even blink about anymore. If Graebers counter point to modern office work, aka BS jobs, is pre-historic hunter-gatherer lifestyle this whole thing gets even more rediciulous. Fun fact, no hunter gatherer could earn a living writing books about other peoples societies and lives.

mandmandam 3y ago

> Our work pays because someone values it, that is tautological. You say that as if it helps your point? I'm talking about "bullshit jobs" as in those described in the book 'Bullshit Jobs' by Graeber. Think Wally from Dilbert; sinecures without the dignity. Here: > Bullshit Jobs: A Theory is a 2018 book by anthropologist David Graeber that postulates the existence of meaningless jobs and analyzes their societal harm. He contends that over half of societal work is pointless and becomes psychologically destructive when paired with a work ethic that associates work with self-worth. Graeber describes five types of meaningless jobs, in which workers pretend their role is not as pointless or harmful as they know it to be: flunkies, goons, duct tapers, box tickers, and taskmasters. He argues that the association of labor with virtuous suffering is recent in human history and proposes unions and universal basic income as a potential solution.

slothtrop 3y ago
> You say that as if it helps your point? Yes.
hef19898 3y ago
Not sure if that point stands in the light of modern, or any, organisational theory so. Bureaucracy does exist for a reason, to organize things and activities. That organization allows us to live the pampered life we life (at least some do, especially in the developed world). Bullshit jobs are seen as such because division of activities was taken to a point were people fail to see the overall picture. Because, as sad as it is sometimes, in a capitalist society as long as someone pays for job being done, that job holds some value. Even if the people doing it fail to see that sometimes. If you care about some greater meaning ij your job, otherwise if it pays the bills, gets food on the table and, ideally, provides some financial stability, tue job actually provides a ton of value to thw person holding it, regardless if someone classifies it as a BS job or not. By the way, being to conplain about the metaphysical nature and philosophocal meaning of a day job is one of the highest privileges a person can have.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  Value to the yachting class is not the same thing as value to society. Value to the psychopathic dictator buying billions in weapons for his country is not the same thing as value to society. Value to Exxon is not the same thing as value to every living creature on the planet. What Graeber did was look at the net balance. I recommend you look more into it, because your interpretation of what he and I are saying is way off. > By the way, being to conplain about the metaphysical nature and philosophocal meaning of a day job is one of the highest privileges a person can have. Did your boss tell you that? Look at a graph of productivy versus wages over the last 50 years. We should be working 15 hours a week, like our prehistoric ancestors did. We're killing the planet. Thousands of species are being lost. Infinite growth is a lie that is literally going to kill us. It has to stop. This isn't metaphysical or philosophical, it's life and death.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    If you look at my comment history, you will see that I am, by US standards, borderline communist. I am also realist enough, to acknowlwdge the fact that people have to earn a living through work (we don't have the utopia Star Trek is showing, and even if we did I am sure reality would be more like The Expanse), and to see that, so far, a tamed version of capitalism provided, on average, the best outcome. And that means that not ever single person has the luxury to get all the meabing from a job needed to pay the bills. Heck, that was the case throughout history, the deffinition of BS is all that differed. And no, nothing we do in the Western World, or the vast majority, is life and death. Theat is reserved for people suffering war, civil or otherwise, famine and rampant crime. Or people suffering through deregulated, unconstraint capitalism (which, I know, applies to people in the US for example, people that don't hold jobs that make up the majority of HN users so). So yes, this whole BS job thing is, IMHO, highly dubious. Edit: Our pre-historic ancestors worked more than 15 hours, and they faced constant death by stuff we don't even blink about anymore. If Graebers counter point to modern office work, aka BS jobs, is pre-historic hunter-gatherer lifestyle this whole thing gets even more rediciulous. Fun fact, no hunter gatherer could earn a living writing books about other peoples societies and lives.