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Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at leas

Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at least let the most vulnerable/sick/injured flee.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
They have prepared and requested to send a large amount of aid through that border which Israel disallowed. As for opening the border for Israel’s request to Nakba the whole population into someone else’s desert…
pgeorgi 3y ago
Egypt prefers dead Palestinians within Gaza over Palestinians living elsewhere and Israel, maybe, controlling the Gaza strip. Al-Sisi, as reported in https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/12/Gazans-must-remain-on-their-land-Egypt-s-Sisi https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/12/Ga...: > But the case of Gazans “is different”, he said, because their displacement would mean “the elimination of the (Palestinian) cause.”
- stoorafa 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    > If Palestinians leave Gaza to Egypt, then Egypt will be complicit with Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. But at least it guarantees that there are Palestinians who can seek redress, e.g. at the ICJ. But I suppose when there's the "Palestinian cause", Palestinian lives cease to matter. (let's ignore West Bank for a moment since Al-Sisi and you both did)
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    And if they keep the border shut tight, aren't they complicit in Hamas's use of civilians as human shields?
    - falserum 3y ago
      If they open border they will let the Hamas out of the trap. (Then Cairo could start receiving air deliveries of either hamas bombs or hamas hunter bombs; neither is nice)
    - jacooper 3y ago
      Give me a single reliable source that says Hamas were in hospitals or schools that were bombed. The IDF is a bullshit source btw, they lied and they still lie while burning humanitarian aid. https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1733627762085183877 https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1733627762085183877 To the point Israelis have recognized the truth, it's an apartheid. https://x.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1734436437825839539 https://x.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1734436437825839539
      - awinograd 3y ago
        We shouldn't take any statements from either side of the conflict at face value, but it's not realistic to deny any evidence that arises just because of who produced it. Here's what I think is a pretty reasonable take on that[1]. Here is CNN reporting on a video that shows a guy with an RPG walking around the hospital[2]. FWIW, I agree that the IDF soldiers in the linked tweet should be punished for destroying civilian property/aid without any military purpose. It's good to criticize anybody when they do something wrong, regardless of which side of the conflict you lean towards. [1] https://youtu.be/4qL6oM12CU8?t=417 https://youtu.be/4qL6oM12CU8?t=417 [2] https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/hospital-gaza-al-quds-idf-terrorist-hamas-rpg-launcher-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/hospital-gaza-al...
deleted 3y ago
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lornemalvo 3y ago
All neighboring countries have a fair share of experiences with palestinian groups starting civil wars/trying to overthrow their governments. Even if it was not for keeping the conflict with Israel alive (which is a perfect tool for them to distract from their own problems), they would not want them in.
Unfrozen0688 3y ago
They dont want to let Hamas in. Hamas comes from the Egypt, now banned, Muslim brotherhood party. If they let 1-2 mil Palestinians, the sinai penninsula would be taken over.
tmnvix 3y ago
The Rafah crossing is one of about half a dozen border crossings in Gaza. Is it really so out of the question that Israel allow civilians to seek refuge within Israel while they wage their campaign? I am fully aware that it would be politically unpopular, but without allowing that to happen I find it hard to take Israeli politicians at their word when they claim they are doing everything to minimise civilian casualties.
- edanm 3y ago
  It is absolutely impossible. There is no way to tell who are civilians and who are Hamas militants - they purposeful wear civilian clothing and hide amongst civilians. If Israel were to let them through the border into Israel, there is no possible way to prevent Hamas militants from killing many many more people. (Unless you mean to create temporary refuge camps heavily armed within Israel that would still be closed borders, which doesn't seem like an improvemnt over the current situation, if you know anything about the geography of the area.)
  - tmnvix 3y ago
    I would assume it could be guaranteed that they would arrive unarmed. > Unless you mean to create temporary refuge camps heavily armed within Israel that would still be closed borders, which doesn't seem like an improvemnt over the current situation You are right that they would have to remain in a confined space. Still, they wouldn't be in danger of being bombarded which would be a vast improvement. Compared with an evacuation into Egypt it would also have the advantage that people would presumably feel more confident that they would eventually be allowed to return (given that Israel would rather they returned to Gaza than remain indefinitely within Israel).
  - r00fus 3y ago
    It's really interesting how the IDF claims to be doing targeted strikes and operations while at the same time there is the general "we can't tell who is civilian vs. militants". It all codes to attitude of "there is no such thing as a non-combatant Palestinian" which leads to collective punishment which is a war crime according to the Geneva convention. I can't imagine Israelis haven't thought this through - so it seems premeditated.
adhamsalama 3y ago
Israel controls who gets in and out from Egypt to Palestine and when/how many aid trucks get it. Now imagine how much they control Palestine.
cracrecry 3y ago
Egypt and specially Jordan are not stupid. They saw what happened in Lebanon.
- knallfrosch 3y ago
  Altough you're right: Jordan has its own, earlier, history with Palestinian arabs. The Palestinians moved to Jordan after losing the 1967 war, started a "civil" war in Jordan and were expelled to Lebanon after losing in 1971. Only then they started the 1975 "civil" war in Lebanon.
feedforward 3y ago
In 1948 Jewish terrorists drove numbers of Palestinians from their homes into Egypt during the Nakba. Israel has refused to let the refugees they created return for the past 75 years. So while Israel is carpet bombing Gaza,the party to be condemned is - Egypt? For not cooperating in Israel's effort to drive the Gazans from their homes?
- stefan_ 3y ago
  > In 1948 Arab states started and lost an illegal invasion and drove millions of Jews from their homes into Israel. Did you mean this? There is no right to return, for no one. I'm not returning to Polish Silesia, Palestinian descendants aren't returning to imaginary ancestral land.
monocasa 3y ago
For one, yes Egypt is complicit in the situation of Gaza. They're paid ~$1.5B/yr by the US in defense aid that's contingent on them playing nice with Israeli defense policy which is mainly seen day to day in the Egyptian enforcement of the Gazan blockade. On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity. Allowing people to escape murder is not "assisting with a crime against humanity", whereas stopping them from doing so is clearly exacerbating the crime against humanity. Which is the point: Egypt isn't blocking Palestinian exits to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestine, it is just counting on not letting that be done by pushing the Palestinians out as refugees being likely to create a pile of corpses that (1) Egypt won't need to feed and secure, and (2) Egypt can use internationally in political propaganda against Israel even more than it could use an expensive pile of refugees.
  - monocasa 3y ago
    Except the combo of general Egyptian/IDF defense coordination brokered by the US combined with the explicit calls for ethnic cleansing by high level Israeli government officials very well could be interpreted as explicitly assisting in ethnic cleansing.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Except the combo of general Egyptian/IDF defense coordination brokered by the US combined with the explicit calls for ethnic cleansing by high level Israeli government officials very well could be interpreted as explicitly assisting in ethnic cleansing. Sure, but then it would be following the agreement with Israel restricting imports that would be assisting with the ethnic cleansing more than allowing refugees out.

wahnfrieden 3y ago

They have prepared and requested to send a large amount of aid through that border which Israel disallowed. As for opening the border for Israel’s request to Nakba the whole population into someone else’s desert…

pgeorgi 3y ago

Egypt prefers dead Palestinians within Gaza over Palestinians living elsewhere and Israel, maybe, controlling the Gaza strip. Al-Sisi, as reported in https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/12/Gazans-must-remain-on-their-land-Egypt-s-Sisi https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/12/Ga...: > But the case of Gazans “is different”, he said, because their displacement would mean “the elimination of the (Palestinian) cause.”

stoorafa 3y ago
[flagged]
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  > If Palestinians leave Gaza to Egypt, then Egypt will be complicit with Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. But at least it guarantees that there are Palestinians who can seek redress, e.g. at the ICJ. But I suppose when there's the "Palestinian cause", Palestinian lives cease to matter. (let's ignore West Bank for a moment since Al-Sisi and you both did)
- bluescrn 3y ago
  And if they keep the border shut tight, aren't they complicit in Hamas's use of civilians as human shields?
  - falserum 3y ago
    If they open border they will let the Hamas out of the trap. (Then Cairo could start receiving air deliveries of either hamas bombs or hamas hunter bombs; neither is nice)
  - jacooper 3y ago
    Give me a single reliable source that says Hamas were in hospitals or schools that were bombed. The IDF is a bullshit source btw, they lied and they still lie while burning humanitarian aid. https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1733627762085183877 https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1733627762085183877 To the point Israelis have recognized the truth, it's an apartheid. https://x.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1734436437825839539 https://x.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1734436437825839539
    - awinograd 3y ago
      We shouldn't take any statements from either side of the conflict at face value, but it's not realistic to deny any evidence that arises just because of who produced it. Here's what I think is a pretty reasonable take on that[1]. Here is CNN reporting on a video that shows a guy with an RPG walking around the hospital[2]. FWIW, I agree that the IDF soldiers in the linked tweet should be punished for destroying civilian property/aid without any military purpose. It's good to criticize anybody when they do something wrong, regardless of which side of the conflict you lean towards. [1] https://youtu.be/4qL6oM12CU8?t=417 https://youtu.be/4qL6oM12CU8?t=417 [2] https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/hospital-gaza-al-quds-idf-terrorist-hamas-rpg-launcher-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/hospital-gaza-al...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lornemalvo 3y ago

All neighboring countries have a fair share of experiences with palestinian groups starting civil wars/trying to overthrow their governments. Even if it was not for keeping the conflict with Israel alive (which is a perfect tool for them to distract from their own problems), they would not want them in.

Unfrozen0688 3y ago

They dont want to let Hamas in. Hamas comes from the Egypt, now banned, Muslim brotherhood party. If they let 1-2 mil Palestinians, the sinai penninsula would be taken over.

tmnvix 3y ago

The Rafah crossing is one of about half a dozen border crossings in Gaza. Is it really so out of the question that Israel allow civilians to seek refuge within Israel while they wage their campaign? I am fully aware that it would be politically unpopular, but without allowing that to happen I find it hard to take Israeli politicians at their word when they claim they are doing everything to minimise civilian casualties.

edanm 3y ago
It is absolutely impossible. There is no way to tell who are civilians and who are Hamas militants - they purposeful wear civilian clothing and hide amongst civilians. If Israel were to let them through the border into Israel, there is no possible way to prevent Hamas militants from killing many many more people. (Unless you mean to create temporary refuge camps heavily armed within Israel that would still be closed borders, which doesn't seem like an improvemnt over the current situation, if you know anything about the geography of the area.)
- tmnvix 3y ago
  I would assume it could be guaranteed that they would arrive unarmed. > Unless you mean to create temporary refuge camps heavily armed within Israel that would still be closed borders, which doesn't seem like an improvemnt over the current situation You are right that they would have to remain in a confined space. Still, they wouldn't be in danger of being bombarded which would be a vast improvement. Compared with an evacuation into Egypt it would also have the advantage that people would presumably feel more confident that they would eventually be allowed to return (given that Israel would rather they returned to Gaza than remain indefinitely within Israel).
- r00fus 3y ago
  It's really interesting how the IDF claims to be doing targeted strikes and operations while at the same time there is the general "we can't tell who is civilian vs. militants". It all codes to attitude of "there is no such thing as a non-combatant Palestinian" which leads to collective punishment which is a war crime according to the Geneva convention. I can't imagine Israelis haven't thought this through - so it seems premeditated.

adhamsalama 3y ago

Israel controls who gets in and out from Egypt to Palestine and when/how many aid trucks get it. Now imagine how much they control Palestine.

cracrecry 3y ago

Egypt and specially Jordan are not stupid. They saw what happened in Lebanon.

knallfrosch 3y ago
Altough you're right: Jordan has its own, earlier, history with Palestinian arabs. The Palestinians moved to Jordan after losing the 1967 war, started a "civil" war in Jordan and were expelled to Lebanon after losing in 1971. Only then they started the 1975 "civil" war in Lebanon.

feedforward 3y ago

In 1948 Jewish terrorists drove numbers of Palestinians from their homes into Egypt during the Nakba. Israel has refused to let the refugees they created return for the past 75 years. So while Israel is carpet bombing Gaza,the party to be condemned is - Egypt? For not cooperating in Israel's effort to drive the Gazans from their homes?

stefan_ 3y ago
> In 1948 Arab states started and lost an illegal invasion and drove millions of Jews from their homes into Israel. Did you mean this? There is no right to return, for no one. I'm not returning to Polish Silesia, Palestinian descendants aren't returning to imaginary ancestral land.

monocasa 3y ago

For one, yes Egypt is complicit in the situation of Gaza. They're paid ~$1.5B/yr by the US in defense aid that's contingent on them playing nice with Israeli defense policy which is mainly seen day to day in the Egyptian enforcement of the Gazan blockade. On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity. Allowing people to escape murder is not "assisting with a crime against humanity", whereas stopping them from doing so is clearly exacerbating the crime against humanity. Which is the point: Egypt isn't blocking Palestinian exits to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestine, it is just counting on not letting that be done by pushing the Palestinians out as refugees being likely to create a pile of corpses that (1) Egypt won't need to feed and secure, and (2) Egypt can use internationally in political propaganda against Israel even more than it could use an expensive pile of refugees.
- monocasa 3y ago
  Except the combo of general Egyptian/IDF defense coordination brokered by the US combined with the explicit calls for ethnic cleansing by high level Israeli government officials very well could be interpreted as explicitly assisting in ethnic cleansing.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Except the combo of general Egyptian/IDF defense coordination brokered by the US combined with the explicit calls for ethnic cleansing by high level Israeli government officials very well could be interpreted as explicitly assisting in ethnic cleansing. Sure, but then it would be following the agreement with Israel restricting imports that would be assisting with the ethnic cleansing more than allowing refugees out.