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Currently manure is typically spread on fields because it acts as a fertilizer and makes crops grow better. This proposes to extract various things from the ma

Currently manure is typically spread on fields because it acts as a fertilizer and makes crops grow better. This proposes to extract various things from the manure and purify then and use them to spread on fields to make crops grow better. I have to wonder if such an approach can ever exceed the effects of the simple approach of muck-spreading...

hosh 3y ago
The article claims that "Although manure itself can be used as fertilizer, doing so can be costly, logistically challenging and has environmental drawbacks." ... but knowing what I know about permaculture design, this assertion comes from a particular way of seeing, one that that contributes to system issues. It's not enough to look at efficiency, you also have to look at efficacy. I think the simple aproach of muck-spreading is better. Integrating ranching with farming reduces the "logistical challenge", and proper design means the "environmental drawbacks" turns into solutions.
- contingencies 3y ago
  You don't have to be a permaculture gardener to have skepticism about highly processed artificial inputs to biological systems. Fungal and insect biome that break down and live within decaying organic matter represent hundreds of millions of years of development. Ancient Taoist philosophy is centered on the wisdom of aligning with natural process. IMHO modern science is learning, but still knows so little about natural systems, particularly relationships within insect, fungi and angiosperm communities which are the objective core of botanical systems. We live in exciting times, but the future of agriculture is certainly not DDT, trucking in guano from Pacific Islands, and John Deere harvesting machines.
  - hosh 3y ago
    I hear a lot of push-back and skepticism here about uncontextualized ideas coming from permaculture design, and I have learned to make it clear about the frame, paradigm, and worldview I am speaking from. A common push-back is about efficiency and scale and confusing it for efficacy. Going along further down this road, what's a bit of a mind twister is when I assert it's better to approach Kuberenetes like gardening. A lot of the apparent complexity are actually part of the self-healing mechanisms. As far as Taoist philosophy goes, not everyone buys into that, and there are multiple ways to interpret and approach Taoism. Still, have you ever read a book entitled, "Treatise on Efficacy"?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - nataliste 3y ago
      Hey, I just want to thank you for the book recommendation. Reading the preface to "A Treatise on Efficacy: Between Western and Chinese Thinking"[1] it seems to codify a lot that I've previously thought about. And as a topical aside, I can personally vouch for the practicality of humanure[2] and ph-adjusted urine-capture[3]. They are indeed simpler, scalable, and well within that sweetspot of minimal inputs and maximal outputs, particularly when it comes to fertility. --- 1 - ISBN: 9780824843144 2 - https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ 3 - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720328308 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972...
      - hosh 3y ago
        This one is a bit more tangential (but still related to decomposition by ecological systems), but I think really cool. Have you ever checked out Dr John Todd’s work on ecomachines? (The guy who found a method to break down DDT in 40 days and had worked on a superfund site that had the EPA top 10 pollutants). https://youtu.be/SeQotnmhO5I?si=4DTDGC0FFFGbPZEr https://youtu.be/SeQotnmhO5I?si=4DTDGC0FFFGbPZEr
MightyBuzzard 3y ago
Given that most farmers already use chemical fertilizer rather than shit, we're not short on data for analysis. One benefit you overlooked is knowing exactly what and how much you're putting in your soil. A bag of ammonium nitrate gives you a known quantity to factor with while shit is far from homogeneous in its makeup.
Modified3019 3y ago
For non-subsistence farming, the amount of manure needed to replace the amount of nutrients being removed every year can result in too much of some things which can harm the ground. Growers have to be careful not to accidentally salt their ground with manure. Manure is also very heavy, and therefore expensive to transport, and that’s without going into restrictions that kick in when moving animal waste long distances. Pathogens, weeds and even pesticide residue are also a concern. The dairy I work with makes use of large digester tanks that help reduce these. Basically manure is great when you are close to a source (like a dairy), but you can’t put on too much or move it around too far without issues. So there is value in being able to economically break it up into it’s components.

hosh 3y ago

The article claims that "Although manure itself can be used as fertilizer, doing so can be costly, logistically challenging and has environmental drawbacks." ... but knowing what I know about permaculture design, this assertion comes from a particular way of seeing, one that that contributes to system issues. It's not enough to look at efficiency, you also have to look at efficacy. I think the simple aproach of muck-spreading is better. Integrating ranching with farming reduces the "logistical challenge", and proper design means the "environmental drawbacks" turns into solutions.

contingencies 3y ago
You don't have to be a permaculture gardener to have skepticism about highly processed artificial inputs to biological systems. Fungal and insect biome that break down and live within decaying organic matter represent hundreds of millions of years of development. Ancient Taoist philosophy is centered on the wisdom of aligning with natural process. IMHO modern science is learning, but still knows so little about natural systems, particularly relationships within insect, fungi and angiosperm communities which are the objective core of botanical systems. We live in exciting times, but the future of agriculture is certainly not DDT, trucking in guano from Pacific Islands, and John Deere harvesting machines.
- hosh 3y ago
  I hear a lot of push-back and skepticism here about uncontextualized ideas coming from permaculture design, and I have learned to make it clear about the frame, paradigm, and worldview I am speaking from. A common push-back is about efficiency and scale and confusing it for efficacy. Going along further down this road, what's a bit of a mind twister is when I assert it's better to approach Kuberenetes like gardening. A lot of the apparent complexity are actually part of the self-healing mechanisms. As far as Taoist philosophy goes, not everyone buys into that, and there are multiple ways to interpret and approach Taoism. Still, have you ever read a book entitled, "Treatise on Efficacy"?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - nataliste 3y ago
    Hey, I just want to thank you for the book recommendation. Reading the preface to "A Treatise on Efficacy: Between Western and Chinese Thinking"[1] it seems to codify a lot that I've previously thought about. And as a topical aside, I can personally vouch for the practicality of humanure[2] and ph-adjusted urine-capture[3]. They are indeed simpler, scalable, and well within that sweetspot of minimal inputs and maximal outputs, particularly when it comes to fertility. --- 1 - ISBN: 9780824843144 2 - https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ 3 - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720328308 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972...
    - hosh 3y ago
      This one is a bit more tangential (but still related to decomposition by ecological systems), but I think really cool. Have you ever checked out Dr John Todd’s work on ecomachines? (The guy who found a method to break down DDT in 40 days and had worked on a superfund site that had the EPA top 10 pollutants). https://youtu.be/SeQotnmhO5I?si=4DTDGC0FFFGbPZEr https://youtu.be/SeQotnmhO5I?si=4DTDGC0FFFGbPZEr

MightyBuzzard 3y ago

Given that most farmers already use chemical fertilizer rather than shit, we're not short on data for analysis. One benefit you overlooked is knowing exactly what and how much you're putting in your soil. A bag of ammonium nitrate gives you a known quantity to factor with while shit is far from homogeneous in its makeup.

Modified3019 3y ago

For non-subsistence farming, the amount of manure needed to replace the amount of nutrients being removed every year can result in too much of some things which can harm the ground. Growers have to be careful not to accidentally salt their ground with manure. Manure is also very heavy, and therefore expensive to transport, and that’s without going into restrictions that kick in when moving animal waste long distances. Pathogens, weeds and even pesticide residue are also a concern. The dairy I work with makes use of large digester tanks that help reduce these. Basically manure is great when you are close to a source (like a dairy), but you can’t put on too much or move it around too far without issues. So there is value in being able to economically break it up into it’s components.