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In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

ardit33 3y ago
[flagged]
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  The white phosphorus Israel is using in Lebanon and Palestine is manufactured in Pine Bluff, Arkansas
  - ashirusnw 3y ago
    They don't use it as munition, it's used by all countries in the way Israel uses it
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - ashirusnw 3y ago
        Nope. There are isolated reports which are of doctors in Gaza saying they have a seen burns that they estimate to be white phosphorus but (a) it's their guess it could be from any number of munitions/explosives (b) phosphorus used legally in flares could cause injuries if they fall unspent (c) Gaza doctors like everyone under Hamas rule cannot speak freely to press. The reports from Lebonon are isolated incurred that are highly inclusive too. Plus this accusation is used as part of the anti-Israel "genocide" narative that Israel simply wants to harm Gazans/Palestinians civilians, but why on earth even according to this beer particular view would it use white phosphorus as a munition in Lebanon?
- jgeada 3y ago
  Sometimes the Onion hits it out the park: "Israel Assures It Doing Everything Possible To Minimize Civilians" https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-possible-to-minimize-1851085308 https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-...
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    The Canadian Onion has some great articles too: "Spineless fence-sitter thinks killing children is bad no matter who does it": https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-thinks-killing-children-is-bad-no-matter-who-does-it/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-... https://www.thebeaverton.com/tag/israel/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/tag/israel/
- snowpid 3y ago
  " I am talking about women/children. " Can you elaborate, what makes especially women special as a victim?
  - vimax 3y ago
    The vast majority of combatants are male, so women and children are typically viewed as non-combatants by default.
  - ardit33 3y ago
    I saw some of the incursion footage. How many of the hamas troops in the October 7 incursion were women? 0, from what I saw in the footage the only women involved were isreali victims getting kidnapped. Mostly of the incursion was done by males clearly in their 20s/30s. Perhaps few 19+, but I didn't see any kids participating in it either. Sure, there might be some women helping out, but we can say it is mostly men, and 99% of the women killed, and most of the kids under 17 are victims of IDF's indiscriminate bombing, paid by our taxes. If you want to defend war crimes, keep on going, but I feel sick how some goons in the tech community are justifying the killing by saying a '11 year old' is probably a hamas terrorist.
    - ashirusnw 3y ago
      If you want to keep the discourse HN-worthy then delete the last para. But btw apparently cctv footage showed women and children participating in Oct 7 massacre https://freebeacon.com/national-security/children-as-young-as-10-took-part-in-hamass-oct-7-terror-attack-survivors-say/ https://freebeacon.com/national-security/children-as-young-a... (not checked site credibility but it's not the only place mentioned). Not saying that I (or Israel) would airstrike young teen's house because they joined in an atrocity but just addressing your claim that zero women/kids involved... Regardless the footage shows many who are just as likely 17 or 18 which are counted amongst the "children" count in the reported death tolls when it's entirely likely that are are plenty of 17 and 18yo (and younger) fighters in Gaza right now.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Women (on average) are much less likely to be combatants or pose a threat, are physically more vulnerable, and (as the only people who can bear children) are more important than men for preserving the future of humanity.
- ameminator 3y ago
  I'll let your comment speak for itself. We did give lots of aid to Ukraine and we somehow were able to have discussions about whether we should continue to do so, in a relatively civilized manner. [0] Somehow, when it comes to Israel and/or Palestine, all nuance gets lost, my "side" is "right", and the other "side" is an unholy abomination, morally disgusting or some other thing without room for earnest discussion. I'll let the rest of this thread speak for itself. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37101187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37101187
  - jfengel 3y ago
    It's hard to look at the events of October 7 and not conclude that they are "unholy abomination, morally disgusting". It may be that they were provoked by equally abominable behavior by the other side. I'll leave that to each person's conscience. But it's quite undeniable that at least one side committed unspeakable atrocities, and there's no merit in saying "Oh, there's no point in demonizing them just because they disagree". This isn't a difference of opinion. There is actual violence going on, like real horror-movie stuff. It may be that both sides are demonic, but there's no way to make the case that neither side is.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  The former Israeli ambassador in Italy has been on Italian TV saying that the destruction of Gaza is their goal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luz1jnI6OIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luz1jnI6OIk (video in Italian). So I believe that civilian casualties are intentional, and all the talk of safe areas (with no clear indication of what these areas are) is just a sham.
  - ashirusnw 3y ago
    ... and later clarified that his comments had been misunderstood https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11/03/battles-on-the-public-diplomacy-front/ https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11/03/battles-on-the-public... (Leaving aside the fact that former ambassadors don't speak for the Israeli government.) The Israeli government has publicly stated [1] they do not intend long-term reoccupation of Gaza. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975
    - LtWorf 3y ago
      Watch the full interview. They offer him many outs, saying that perhaps there is a language barrier, and that he's going to do no favours to his country by saying that. But he insists that it is exactly what he means.
      - ashirusnw 3y ago
        I don't speak Italian so can't do that but regardless of you have to find a former ambassador to Italy then you're scratching around, he was looking out of his post before any strategy of this war was fought and Israel was using the containment strategy re Gaza/Hamas prior to Oct 7
        LtWorf 3y ago
        > I don't speak Italian so can't do that This is hardly my fault. You can hire a professional translator if you don't trust my word. The interview is new.
- lornemalvo 3y ago
  Do you really think that the Russo-Ukrainian war has 10x LESS civilian fatalities than the current Gaza war?
  - 0xDEF 3y ago
    The reason people think only 10,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed is that is lowball number the UN made up to not offend and anger Russia and China. It is estimated that 25,000-75,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed just in Mariupol and surrounding areas.
  - ardit33 3y ago
    percentage wise, Absolutely yes. Ukraine is 40mil. If the current rate was sustained in the Ukraine/russia, we would have seen at least 400k death rates. The estimates are 10-20x less. (between 10 and 20k) You lost the plot, when even a goon like Putin is starting to look more human and conducting a massive war with less civilian casualties.
- ashirusnw 3y ago
  Russia v Ukraine and Israel v Gaza are incomparable, except that they're both wars. A comparable war would be other counter-terrorist warzones like Mosul or Raqqa which in fact have much higher civilian death rate than Gaza. And that's even taking the UNWRA/ Gaza Health numbers at face value, which somehow indicate zero combatants killed in airstrikes.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    You are confusing reported and estimated casualties. The reported civilian deaths in the nine-month Battle of Mosul were around 10k. A later estimate put the total number of civilian deaths to ~40k. The numbers from Gaza are reported deaths, and nobody is seriously disputing them anymore. They are pretty consistent with the claims Israel is making. About two thirds of them should be civilians. That means a bit over 10k dead civilians after 2 months. True civilian casualties are likely higher, but the situation on the ground makes reliable estimates impossible.
- burnerburnson 3y ago
  "Intentional mass murdering of civilians" is what Palestine did to start this war in the first place. So even if Israel were deliberately targeting civilians (there's no evidence for this) they would still be on the right side of this conflict.
  - ardit33 3y ago
    bruh.... this is clearly 'faschist' type of argument. "They deserve it". The dehumanizing of a whole population is just sick. Last times this happen in europe were: 1) WW2, 2) The massacres in the Yogoslavian wars, and especially in Sebrenica which was a clear ethnic cleansning/genocide and the war leaders ended up getting convicted for war crimes and crimes against the humanity. Benjamin Netanyahu is on the way to become the next Milosevic, a war criminal.
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  >Even that, has x10 less the civilian rate death. What a blatant lie. The Siege of Mariupol alone is estimated to have killed somewhere between 25000 and 75000 civilians. The UN's fraudulent claim that "only 10,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed" is a blatant lie to keep China and Russia happy. Any discussion about collateral damage should take population density into consideration. The population density of Ukraine is 63 per square kilometer. The population density of Gaza is 5500 per square kilometer.
mistermann 3y ago
> I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. I bet almost no one in this thread is able to juggle three balls either, even though learning how to do so doesn't take all that much practice. But it does take some practice. Should we be surprised when people are unable to do something that requires practice and education, when they lack both?
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  If the vast majority of HN users can't juggle three balls simultaneously, but the few experts can, it seems fair that the experts shouldn't be restricted from juggling, as long as they comply with the rules.
- ameminator 3y ago
  I (and many other users of this forum) have expectations on the minimum quality of discourse. Moreover, I am happy this forum exists with its quality of discussion. I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point).
  - mistermann 3y ago
    > I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Are you opposed in principle to even higher levels? > Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. How much compute did you apply to the proposition, and what set of algorithms are you personally working with? > To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. Agreed. This site is, to some degree, about systems and programming, which involves analysis and logic. I would therefore expect that people would at least have at least some interest in the exercise of sound analysis and logic....and yet, as you note, on certain topics our normal standards within this system (HN forums) cannot be met. Is this not a rather curious phenomenon? Do you believe that it is perhaps worthy of some analysis (especially considering lives are literally in the balance)? > If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point). A problem: that which can be "reasoned" is not necessarily true. Another problem: sometimes action (and inaction) has deadly consequences. If it was you living in Israel or Gaza, do you think you would be advising complacency and disinterest on this matter?
wolverine876 3y ago
The last two threads I've seen on HN on this issue have been civil and productive. I'm very impressed with HN (and with the moderators).

ardit33 3y ago

[flagged]

wahnfrieden 3y ago
The white phosphorus Israel is using in Lebanon and Palestine is manufactured in Pine Bluff, Arkansas
- ashirusnw 3y ago
  They don't use it as munition, it's used by all countries in the way Israel uses it
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ashirusnw 3y ago
      Nope. There are isolated reports which are of doctors in Gaza saying they have a seen burns that they estimate to be white phosphorus but (a) it's their guess it could be from any number of munitions/explosives (b) phosphorus used legally in flares could cause injuries if they fall unspent (c) Gaza doctors like everyone under Hamas rule cannot speak freely to press. The reports from Lebonon are isolated incurred that are highly inclusive too. Plus this accusation is used as part of the anti-Israel "genocide" narative that Israel simply wants to harm Gazans/Palestinians civilians, but why on earth even according to this beer particular view would it use white phosphorus as a munition in Lebanon?
jgeada 3y ago
Sometimes the Onion hits it out the park: "Israel Assures It Doing Everything Possible To Minimize Civilians" https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-possible-to-minimize-1851085308 https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-...
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  The Canadian Onion has some great articles too: "Spineless fence-sitter thinks killing children is bad no matter who does it": https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-thinks-killing-children-is-bad-no-matter-who-does-it/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-... https://www.thebeaverton.com/tag/israel/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/tag/israel/
snowpid 3y ago
" I am talking about women/children. " Can you elaborate, what makes especially women special as a victim?
- vimax 3y ago
  The vast majority of combatants are male, so women and children are typically viewed as non-combatants by default.
- ardit33 3y ago
  I saw some of the incursion footage. How many of the hamas troops in the October 7 incursion were women? 0, from what I saw in the footage the only women involved were isreali victims getting kidnapped. Mostly of the incursion was done by males clearly in their 20s/30s. Perhaps few 19+, but I didn't see any kids participating in it either. Sure, there might be some women helping out, but we can say it is mostly men, and 99% of the women killed, and most of the kids under 17 are victims of IDF's indiscriminate bombing, paid by our taxes. If you want to defend war crimes, keep on going, but I feel sick how some goons in the tech community are justifying the killing by saying a '11 year old' is probably a hamas terrorist.
  - ashirusnw 3y ago
    If you want to keep the discourse HN-worthy then delete the last para. But btw apparently cctv footage showed women and children participating in Oct 7 massacre https://freebeacon.com/national-security/children-as-young-as-10-took-part-in-hamass-oct-7-terror-attack-survivors-say/ https://freebeacon.com/national-security/children-as-young-a... (not checked site credibility but it's not the only place mentioned). Not saying that I (or Israel) would airstrike young teen's house because they joined in an atrocity but just addressing your claim that zero women/kids involved... Regardless the footage shows many who are just as likely 17 or 18 which are counted amongst the "children" count in the reported death tolls when it's entirely likely that are are plenty of 17 and 18yo (and younger) fighters in Gaza right now.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Women (on average) are much less likely to be combatants or pose a threat, are physically more vulnerable, and (as the only people who can bear children) are more important than men for preserving the future of humanity.
ameminator 3y ago
I'll let your comment speak for itself. We did give lots of aid to Ukraine and we somehow were able to have discussions about whether we should continue to do so, in a relatively civilized manner. [0] Somehow, when it comes to Israel and/or Palestine, all nuance gets lost, my "side" is "right", and the other "side" is an unholy abomination, morally disgusting or some other thing without room for earnest discussion. I'll let the rest of this thread speak for itself. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37101187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37101187
- jfengel 3y ago
  It's hard to look at the events of October 7 and not conclude that they are "unholy abomination, morally disgusting". It may be that they were provoked by equally abominable behavior by the other side. I'll leave that to each person's conscience. But it's quite undeniable that at least one side committed unspeakable atrocities, and there's no merit in saying "Oh, there's no point in demonizing them just because they disagree". This isn't a difference of opinion. There is actual violence going on, like real horror-movie stuff. It may be that both sides are demonic, but there's no way to make the case that neither side is.
LtWorf 3y ago
The former Israeli ambassador in Italy has been on Italian TV saying that the destruction of Gaza is their goal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luz1jnI6OIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luz1jnI6OIk (video in Italian). So I believe that civilian casualties are intentional, and all the talk of safe areas (with no clear indication of what these areas are) is just a sham.
- ashirusnw 3y ago
  ... and later clarified that his comments had been misunderstood https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11/03/battles-on-the-public-diplomacy-front/ https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11/03/battles-on-the-public... (Leaving aside the fact that former ambassadors don't speak for the Israeli government.) The Israeli government has publicly stated [1] they do not intend long-term reoccupation of Gaza. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    Watch the full interview. They offer him many outs, saying that perhaps there is a language barrier, and that he's going to do no favours to his country by saying that. But he insists that it is exactly what he means.
    - ashirusnw 3y ago
      I don't speak Italian so can't do that but regardless of you have to find a former ambassador to Italy then you're scratching around, he was looking out of his post before any strategy of this war was fought and Israel was using the containment strategy re Gaza/Hamas prior to Oct 7
      - LtWorf 3y ago
        > I don't speak Italian so can't do that This is hardly my fault. You can hire a professional translator if you don't trust my word. The interview is new.
lornemalvo 3y ago
Do you really think that the Russo-Ukrainian war has 10x LESS civilian fatalities than the current Gaza war?
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  The reason people think only 10,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed is that is lowball number the UN made up to not offend and anger Russia and China. It is estimated that 25,000-75,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed just in Mariupol and surrounding areas.
- ardit33 3y ago
  percentage wise, Absolutely yes. Ukraine is 40mil. If the current rate was sustained in the Ukraine/russia, we would have seen at least 400k death rates. The estimates are 10-20x less. (between 10 and 20k) You lost the plot, when even a goon like Putin is starting to look more human and conducting a massive war with less civilian casualties.
ashirusnw 3y ago
Russia v Ukraine and Israel v Gaza are incomparable, except that they're both wars. A comparable war would be other counter-terrorist warzones like Mosul or Raqqa which in fact have much higher civilian death rate than Gaza. And that's even taking the UNWRA/ Gaza Health numbers at face value, which somehow indicate zero combatants killed in airstrikes.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  You are confusing reported and estimated casualties. The reported civilian deaths in the nine-month Battle of Mosul were around 10k. A later estimate put the total number of civilian deaths to ~40k. The numbers from Gaza are reported deaths, and nobody is seriously disputing them anymore. They are pretty consistent with the claims Israel is making. About two thirds of them should be civilians. That means a bit over 10k dead civilians after 2 months. True civilian casualties are likely higher, but the situation on the ground makes reliable estimates impossible.
burnerburnson 3y ago
"Intentional mass murdering of civilians" is what Palestine did to start this war in the first place. So even if Israel were deliberately targeting civilians (there's no evidence for this) they would still be on the right side of this conflict.
- ardit33 3y ago
  bruh.... this is clearly 'faschist' type of argument. "They deserve it". The dehumanizing of a whole population is just sick. Last times this happen in europe were: 1) WW2, 2) The massacres in the Yogoslavian wars, and especially in Sebrenica which was a clear ethnic cleansning/genocide and the war leaders ended up getting convicted for war crimes and crimes against the humanity. Benjamin Netanyahu is on the way to become the next Milosevic, a war criminal.
0xDEF 3y ago
>Even that, has x10 less the civilian rate death. What a blatant lie. The Siege of Mariupol alone is estimated to have killed somewhere between 25000 and 75000 civilians. The UN's fraudulent claim that "only 10,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed" is a blatant lie to keep China and Russia happy. Any discussion about collateral damage should take population density into consideration. The population density of Ukraine is 63 per square kilometer. The population density of Gaza is 5500 per square kilometer.

mistermann 3y ago

> I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. I bet almost no one in this thread is able to juggle three balls either, even though learning how to do so doesn't take all that much practice. But it does take some practice. Should we be surprised when people are unable to do something that requires practice and education, when they lack both?

MichaelZuo 3y ago
If the vast majority of HN users can't juggle three balls simultaneously, but the few experts can, it seems fair that the experts shouldn't be restricted from juggling, as long as they comply with the rules.
ameminator 3y ago
I (and many other users of this forum) have expectations on the minimum quality of discourse. Moreover, I am happy this forum exists with its quality of discussion. I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point).
- mistermann 3y ago
  > I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Are you opposed in principle to even higher levels? > Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. How much compute did you apply to the proposition, and what set of algorithms are you personally working with? > To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. Agreed. This site is, to some degree, about systems and programming, which involves analysis and logic. I would therefore expect that people would at least have at least some interest in the exercise of sound analysis and logic....and yet, as you note, on certain topics our normal standards within this system (HN forums) cannot be met. Is this not a rather curious phenomenon? Do you believe that it is perhaps worthy of some analysis (especially considering lives are literally in the balance)? > If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point). A problem: that which can be "reasoned" is not necessarily true. Another problem: sometimes action (and inaction) has deadly consequences. If it was you living in Israel or Gaza, do you think you would be advising complacency and disinterest on this matter?

wolverine876 3y ago

The last two threads I've seen on HN on this issue have been civil and productive. I'm very impressed with HN (and with the moderators).