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Im glad to see the community engage with this -- there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now and its jarring that it would be so silen

Im glad to see the community engage with this -- there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now and its jarring that it would be so silent. Edit: And why is it relevant here? At a minimum coworkers are suffering silently through it. The emotional damage just for internet bystanders is staggering.

tasubotadas 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Could you please stop posting personal attacks and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
michalhosna 3y ago
> there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now Not that this should be a competition, but there still are other wars with atrocities/genocides happening at the moment. E.g. Ukraine
ameminator 3y ago
In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.
- ardit33 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    The white phosphorus Israel is using in Lebanon and Palestine is manufactured in Pine Bluff, Arkansas
    - ashirusnw 3y ago
      They don't use it as munition, it's used by all countries in the way Israel uses it
      - wahnfrieden 3y ago
        [flagged]
        ashirusnw 3y ago
        Nope. There are isolated reports which are of doctors in Gaza saying they have a seen burns that they estimate to be white phosphorus but (a) it's their guess it could be from any number of munitions/explosives (b) phosphorus used legally in flares could cause injuries if they fall unspent (c) Gaza doctors like everyone under Hamas rule cannot speak freely to press. The reports from Lebonon are isolated incurred that are highly inclusive too. Plus this accusation is used as part of the anti-Israel "genocide" narative that Israel simply wants to harm Gazans/Palestinians civilians, but why on earth even according to this beer particular view would it use white phosphorus as a munition in Lebanon?
  - jgeada 3y ago
    Sometimes the Onion hits it out the park: "Israel Assures It Doing Everything Possible To Minimize Civilians" https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-possible-to-minimize-1851085308 https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-...
- mistermann 3y ago
  > I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. I bet almost no one in this thread is able to juggle three balls either, even though learning how to do so doesn't take all that much practice. But it does take some practice. Should we be surprised when people are unable to do something that requires practice and education, when they lack both?
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    If the vast majority of HN users can't juggle three balls simultaneously, but the few experts can, it seems fair that the experts shouldn't be restricted from juggling, as long as they comply with the rules.
  - ameminator 3y ago
    I (and many other users of this forum) have expectations on the minimum quality of discourse. Moreover, I am happy this forum exists with its quality of discussion. I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point).
    - mistermann 3y ago
      > I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Are you opposed in principle to even higher levels? > Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. How much compute did you apply to the proposition, and what set of algorithms are you personally working with? > To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. Agreed. This site is, to some degree, about systems and programming, which involves analysis and logic. I would therefore expect that people would at least have at least some interest in the exercise of sound analysis and logic....and yet, as you note, on certain topics our normal standards within this system (HN forums) cannot be met. Is this not a rather curious phenomenon? Do you believe that it is perhaps worthy of some analysis (especially considering lives are literally in the balance)? > If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point). A problem: that which can be "reasoned" is not necessarily true. Another problem: sometimes action (and inaction) has deadly consequences. If it was you living in Israel or Gaza, do you think you would be advising complacency and disinterest on this matter?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  The last two threads I've seen on HN on this issue have been civil and productive. I'm very impressed with HN (and with the moderators).
jerpint 3y ago
I found the silence on HN around these events deafening when the Oct 7th attacks first happened (before Israeli retaliation). What is depicted here is tragic. There were many other tragic depictions then too. It seems fair to discuss both tragedies yet here only one instance is used as the “testbed” for HN discussions, from a generally biased source. I’m hoping we will find some nuance in these tough conversations and the ability to empathize as much as possible
- ashirusnw 3y ago
  Discussions around Israel disproportionately descend into highly polarised opposites. It's a shame @dang allowed this one through.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > I found the silence on HN around these events deafening when the Oct 7th attacks first happened (before Israeli retaliation. Tech Twitter is where the debate is at. I've been very surprised by some of the takes, to the say the least: Racist, fascist, supremacist undertones in all their glory, tweeted / retweeted ad nauseum (this one, for example, retweeted by Garry Tan https://twitter.com/antoniogm/status/1733687649414869349 https://twitter.com/antoniogm/status/1733687649414869349)
  - vacuity 3y ago
    Whether by nature or nurture or some combination of the two, many people seem to lack compassion and empathy for those significantly outside of their personal bubble. If it was "their people" going through that suffering, they wouldn't stand for it, but as it is, it's someone else's problem. Living in the US, platitudes like "justice and liberty for all" don't hold up to the cold hard reality that it's that person's side versus everyone else. I wonder if we'll ever reach a critical mass of people that genuinely want everyone to thrive and suppress the bad actors that only think about what benefits them.
barryrandall 3y ago
It shouldn't be jarring or even surprising that people won't talk about this specific subject, given what frequently happens to people who talk about this specific subject.

tasubotadas 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
Could you please stop posting personal attacks and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

michalhosna 3y ago

> there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now Not that this should be a competition, but there still are other wars with atrocities/genocides happening at the moment. E.g. Ukraine

ameminator 3y ago

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

ardit33 3y ago
[flagged]
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  The white phosphorus Israel is using in Lebanon and Palestine is manufactured in Pine Bluff, Arkansas
  - ashirusnw 3y ago
    They don't use it as munition, it's used by all countries in the way Israel uses it
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - ashirusnw 3y ago
        Nope. There are isolated reports which are of doctors in Gaza saying they have a seen burns that they estimate to be white phosphorus but (a) it's their guess it could be from any number of munitions/explosives (b) phosphorus used legally in flares could cause injuries if they fall unspent (c) Gaza doctors like everyone under Hamas rule cannot speak freely to press. The reports from Lebonon are isolated incurred that are highly inclusive too. Plus this accusation is used as part of the anti-Israel "genocide" narative that Israel simply wants to harm Gazans/Palestinians civilians, but why on earth even according to this beer particular view would it use white phosphorus as a munition in Lebanon?
- jgeada 3y ago
  Sometimes the Onion hits it out the park: "Israel Assures It Doing Everything Possible To Minimize Civilians" https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-possible-to-minimize-1851085308 https://www.theonion.com/israel-assures-it-doing-everything-...
mistermann 3y ago
> I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. I bet almost no one in this thread is able to juggle three balls either, even though learning how to do so doesn't take all that much practice. But it does take some practice. Should we be surprised when people are unable to do something that requires practice and education, when they lack both?
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  If the vast majority of HN users can't juggle three balls simultaneously, but the few experts can, it seems fair that the experts shouldn't be restricted from juggling, as long as they comply with the rules.
- ameminator 3y ago
  I (and many other users of this forum) have expectations on the minimum quality of discourse. Moreover, I am happy this forum exists with its quality of discussion. I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point).
  - mistermann 3y ago
    > I am interested in preserving this high level of civilized interactions. Are you opposed in principle to even higher levels? > Time and time again, when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine, it has been shown that the discourse never meets the minimum standards I usually enjoy here. To the point where I am not sure if it's even theoretically possible. How much compute did you apply to the proposition, and what set of algorithms are you personally working with? > To use your metaphor - if this were a forum about juggling, I would generally expect people to have an honest interest in juggling, and to have discussions about juggling. Agreed. This site is, to some degree, about systems and programming, which involves analysis and logic. I would therefore expect that people would at least have at least some interest in the exercise of sound analysis and logic....and yet, as you note, on certain topics our normal standards within this system (HN forums) cannot be met. Is this not a rather curious phenomenon? Do you believe that it is perhaps worthy of some analysis (especially considering lives are literally in the balance)? > If every discussion about curling, on my juggling forum, devolved into abuse - it would be reasonable to avoid discussing curling (at a certain point). A problem: that which can be "reasoned" is not necessarily true. Another problem: sometimes action (and inaction) has deadly consequences. If it was you living in Israel or Gaza, do you think you would be advising complacency and disinterest on this matter?
wolverine876 3y ago
The last two threads I've seen on HN on this issue have been civil and productive. I'm very impressed with HN (and with the moderators).

jerpint 3y ago

I found the silence on HN around these events deafening when the Oct 7th attacks first happened (before Israeli retaliation). What is depicted here is tragic. There were many other tragic depictions then too. It seems fair to discuss both tragedies yet here only one instance is used as the “testbed” for HN discussions, from a generally biased source. I’m hoping we will find some nuance in these tough conversations and the ability to empathize as much as possible

ashirusnw 3y ago
Discussions around Israel disproportionately descend into highly polarised opposites. It's a shame @dang allowed this one through.
ignoramous 3y ago
> I found the silence on HN around these events deafening when the Oct 7th attacks first happened (before Israeli retaliation. Tech Twitter is where the debate is at. I've been very surprised by some of the takes, to the say the least: Racist, fascist, supremacist undertones in all their glory, tweeted / retweeted ad nauseum (this one, for example, retweeted by Garry Tan https://twitter.com/antoniogm/status/1733687649414869349 https://twitter.com/antoniogm/status/1733687649414869349)
- vacuity 3y ago
  Whether by nature or nurture or some combination of the two, many people seem to lack compassion and empathy for those significantly outside of their personal bubble. If it was "their people" going through that suffering, they wouldn't stand for it, but as it is, it's someone else's problem. Living in the US, platitudes like "justice and liberty for all" don't hold up to the cold hard reality that it's that person's side versus everyone else. I wonder if we'll ever reach a critical mass of people that genuinely want everyone to thrive and suppress the bad actors that only think about what benefits them.

barryrandall 3y ago

It shouldn't be jarring or even surprising that people won't talk about this specific subject, given what frequently happens to people who talk about this specific subject.